5.4 Changes

[Darkfriend]

Its more the fact that pvp gear is terribly itemized and warrior set bonuses are trash.

Its not just pvp either, that 2set would be absolutely insane for arms (not everything is about fury you know). Insane like macroing HS into every ability and spamming it every cd with infinite rage insane.

It won't matter. Arms would still be below fury, it's that far behind. Remember the 2p will allow Fury to do the same, although obviously fewer CS.

[Hand Banana]

It won't matter. Arms would still be below fury, it's that far behind. Remember the 2p will allow Fury to do the same, although obviously fewer CS.

Again, not everything is about heroic raiding either. Before ilvl like 520 or so ive heard arms is actually better than fury, especially if you have no luck with weapons. I mainly pvp but help out a friends guild with casual raiding now and then and that 2set would be like a 50k dps increase for me if I put that on right now. Not even kidding.

[Darkfriend]

Again, not everything is about heroic raiding either. Before ilvl like 520 or so ive heard arms is actually better than fury, especially if you have no luck with weapons. I mainly pvp but help out a friends guild with casual raiding now and then and that 2set would be like a 50k dps increase for me if I put that on right now. Not even kidding.

It's going to depend on a ton of factors, but at higher skill levels I'd say it is closer to the 500-505 ilvl mark where Fury is ahead.

I can definitely say there is no way it'd be a 50k DPS increase, even able to hit HS every time CS was up.

[Deleted]

Again, not everything is about heroic raiding either. Before ilvl like 520 or so ive heard arms is actually better than fury, especially if you have no luck with weapons. I mainly pvp but help out a friends guild with casual raiding now and then and that 2set would be like a 50k dps increase for me if I put that on right now. Not even kidding.

You should check your math there (or your gear is much better than mine), with 532 avg ilvl and a 530 weapon, even if i could use HS on cooldown for the whole fight i would gain 36k dps, since we can't store "infinite" rage this scenario isn't realistic and the net gain will be much (MUCH) lower.

With the current numbers, for arms, the bonus could be rephrased to "HS costs no rage during CS" and, having in mind the damage HS does (47684.4 avg non crit and 109791.3 avg crit for me), that wouldn't bring us on par with the rest of dps.

[Hand Banana]

You should check your math there (or your gear is much better than mine), with 532 avg ilvl and a 530 weapon, even if i could use HS on cooldown for the whole fight i would gain 36k dps, since we can't store "infinite" rage this scenario isn't realistic and the net gain will be much (MUCH) lower.

With the current numbers, for arms, the bonus could be rephrased to "HS costs no rage during CS" and, having in mind the damage HS does (47684.4 avg non crit and 109791.3 avg crit for me), that wouldn't bring us on par with the rest of dps.

Obviously I didnt do any math when I got that number I was just throwing shit out there. With my current gear I get maybe 20 HS's off a fight unless its one where I can sit in zerker from tons of raid dmg. I think your missing my point; I'm reading "all attacks" to include mastery procs for arms. Which means every attack has an over 50% chance (or whatever ur buffed mastery is) to get 20 rage during cs instead of 10. And more HS means more mastery procs, and with all of these extra mastery procs combined I dont see why CS isnt pushing a 100% uptime. Add to that your normal rage gen and I dont see why you arent basically running infinite rage which means spamming HS on cd for an average of ~36k dps like you say.

[Darkfriend]

Obviously I didnt do any math when I got that number I was just throwing shit out there. With my current gear I get maybe 20 HS's off a fight unless its one where I can sit in zerker from tons of raid dmg. I think your missing my point; I'm reading "all attacks" to include mastery procs for arms. Which means every attack has an over 50% chance (or whatever ur buffed mastery is) to get 20 rage during cs instead of 10. And more HS means more mastery procs, and with all of these extra mastery procs combined I dont see why CS isnt pushing a 100% uptime. Add to that your normal rage gen and I dont see why you arent basically running infinite rage which means spamming HS on cd for an average of ~36k dps like you say.

Because you 1.) Won't have infinite CS uptime, meaning that your HS won't be hitting as hard for that portion of the fight and 2.) Since you won't have 100% CS uptime you won't have infinite rage ANYWAY. AND 3.) Rage cap even hitting HS on CD during a CS there is a good chance you will rage cap at some point unless the rotation changes to something like MS-CS-Slam-Slam-etc in which case although you're doing more damage at one point in the rotation and more overall you're doing less damage in another part (That which is seen vs that which is unseen) meaning it's less than you would think.

There is a reason you don't just pull numbers out of your ass and throw them on the forums. People will show you wrong. Ass numbers are useless.

TL;DR, you are wrong. Will it be a buff for arms? Heck yes. It's very nice. But it will in no way make it competitive with fury in PVE. And if it isn't competitive it won't matter all that much. People who play arms will do so because they want to still, not because it's a good PVE spec.

[Hand Banana]

Because you 1.) Won't have infinite CS uptime, meaning that your HS won't be hitting as hard for that portion of the fight and 2.) Since you won't have 100% CS uptime you won't have infinite rage ANYWAY. AND 3.) Rage cap even hitting HS on CD during a CS there is a good chance you will rage cap at some point unless the rotation changes to something like MS-CS-Slam-Slam-etc in which case although you're doing more damage at one point in the rotation and more overall you're doing less damage in another part (That which is seen vs that which is unseen) meaning it's less than you would think.

There is a reason you don't just pull numbers out of your ass and throw them on the forums. People will show you wrong. Ass numbers are useless.

TL;DR, you are wrong. Will it be a buff for arms? Heck yes. It's very nice. But it will in no way make it competitive with fury in PVE. And if it isn't competitive it won't matter all that much. People who play arms will do so because they want to still, not because it's a good PVE spec.

Jesus settle down, its the first pass at ptr and your going to try to do actual math on what it will be? Your telling me, with the new gear and more haste/mastery that arms wont have 100 % CS uptime? I say it will have damn close to it. Arms still wont be competitive to fury no shit, but they wont let a set bonus be a freaking 30% DPS increase for one spec no matter how bad that spec. Thats what im saying, there is a 0% chance this set bonus will stay, it just wont. For pve and pvp arms it wont.

[Darkfriend]

Jesus settle down, its the first pass at ptr and your going to try to do actual math on what it will be? Your telling me, with the new gear and more haste/mastery that arms wont have 100 % CS uptime? I say it will have damn close to it. Arms still wont be competitive to fury no shit, but they wont let a set bonus be a freaking 30% DPS increase for one spec no matter how bad that spec. Thats what im saying, there is a 0% chance this set bonus will stay, it just wont. For pve and pvp arms it wont.

All I'm saying is that pulling numbers out of your ass to try and look like you know what you are talking about is useless, whereas doing math based on what might be actually has some use.

[Hand Banana]

All I'm saying is that pulling numbers out of your ass to try and look like you know what you are talking about is useless, whereas doing math based on what might be actually has some use.

Im aware of that. This argument blew way out of proportion lol, I was pulling numbers out of my ass to affirm why I think this set bonus wont go live. Shouldve used something like a % instead to seem more reasonable.

Not only that, but a change like this would make rage management essentially a non-issue for arms, not sure how much fury, and a I dont think blizz wants that.

[Darkfriend]

Im aware of that. This argument blew way out of proportion lol, I was pulling numbers out of my ass to affirm why I think this set bonus wont go live. Shouldve used something like a % instead to seem more reasonable.

Not only that, but a change like this would make rage management essentially a non-issue for arms, not sure how much fury, and a I dont think blizz wants that.

But you see the issue with making up numbers to "prove" something. It doesn't work. Ever. You can guess but you need SOME basis to go off of.

[CollisionTD]

Anyone remember when colossus smash cost 60(not sure if exact amount) rage to use back in beta? Fun times.

Also, it's looking unlikely that even with the addition of storm bolt off-hand, that it will eclipse bloodbath. It makes it a competitive choice, and on some encounters (Garalon) could be useful.

Reasoning: Currently, Bloodbath accounts for 12k dps of the SMF BIS profile. If we swap out bloodbath for stormbolt, stormbolt main hand will do 7.5k dps. Currently, simcraft does not have offhand stormbolt implented, but we can assume that it will do 0.875 that damage, or 6.5k. 7.5 + 6.5 = 14k dps.

However, when simply swapping out bloodbath for stormbolt, the profile actually loses 10k dps, dropping from 211k to 201k. I attempted to maximize stormbolt by changing around the rotation, but it seems that using it on cooldown is about the best you can do. If the offhand is added to the 201k, then stormbolt still loses to bloodbath by 3k~, even though stormbolt itself ends up doing more damage than bloodbath.

Stormbolt's ultimate disadvantage here comes down to being on the gcd vs off the gcd. One GCD doesn't sound like much, but how many times are we currently having to push back heroic throw and battle shout because RB/Bloodsurge/CS are up? Simcraft uses heroic throw every 43 seconds even though it is on a 30 second cd, and uses battle shout every 90 seconds even though it is on a 60 second cd. Stormbolt pushes the usage of these two "free damage" sources even more, and also leads to less bloodsurge proc usage as it has a higher priority, and then on top of that, there are a few more heroic strikes used in places where a 30-rage wild strike would have been used. So while you are gaining 14k dps from stormbolt, you are losing 5k dps from using other abilities less.

[Darkfriend]

How much of a different will it make for TG though? Will it be SB for TG and BB for SMF? Although that'd be weird since TG favors AoE fights where BB is going to be better, and SMF favors single target fights where SB would be preferred if it were higher.

I'd like to see avatar work on a "charge" system kind of like demonic fury or w/e for locks. Being able to turn it on/off for periods of multiple adds or burn phases would be nice, and would probably make it useful on at least something. Leave it as it is for PVP though.

[CollisionTD]

It appears to be a 1k dps increase to go with storm bolt for TG. Obviously completely single target.

2/4 T16 bonuses (if they remain the same) will likely remove the 1k advantage though, as there will be far less open gcds, and more rage to pump into bloodbath.

[sjsctt]

Given the scaling, if no other changes were to happen before live, is SMF even going to be competitive? TG already caught up/passed single target this tier on top of being better for cleave. Will there be any incentive to stay SMF?

[Opeth69]

id imagine the set bonuses will favor smf quite heavily over tg seeing as smf will get more rage from the 2pc and also execute hits harder so the 4 pc benefits it a lot more. The potential of having an execute to use during your opening burst as smf is huge, the rng potential with that 4 pc is also huge, getting a execute off as smf during the fight with feathers stacked on a regular basis will be pretty insane.
It's going to be fun hoping that you have trinkets up and 4 pc proc ready for your cds, there going to be some pretty big swings in damage I think with the new 4 set.

[senturion]

Actually our buffs come mainly for the new tier bonus. Has anyone compared our tier 16 bonus to the other classes ? Are we moving up the dps table ? I heard ferals and warlocks getting nerfed

[Darkfriend]

id imagine the set bonuses will favor smf quite heavily over tg seeing as smf will get more rage from the 2pc and also execute hits harder so the 4 pc benefits it a lot more. The potential of having an execute to use during your opening burst as smf is huge, the rng potential with that 4 pc is also huge, getting a execute off as smf during the fight with feathers stacked on a regular basis will be pretty insane.
It's going to be fun hoping that you have trinkets up and 4 pc proc ready for your cds, there going to be some pretty big swings in damage I think with the new 4 set.

Remember, that having too much rage may become an issue with tier set, the key word being *may*. If that is true, it will even out the TG V SMF difference. It also assumes they keep everything hitting during a CS able to grant rage, which I'm kind of thinking they won't keep. If they make only yellow attacks or direct attacks on on the GCD attacks to grant rage much will change.

[Opeth69]

even if the 2 set is balanced more evenly the 4 set heavily favors SMF over TG, was kinda looking forward to dual wielding polearms seeing as they just added it :P

[cFortyfive]

I have to admit those changes in the new build are quite exciting.

[helic]

Are warriors getting anything to help them in PvP arenas this patch? I know a lot of the cloth classes are losing that 15% damage mitigation that they got passively for no reason, but id like to know if I can play my alt in arenas without people passing me up for all the other classes just because they are much better.