5.4 Changes

[helic]

I really wanted to play my warrior in 5.4, that arena gear looks so nice but it's going to be such a sad grind with no potential end game team comps it looks like.

[Flaks]

There is a difference between feedback from PTR/testing and outright forum whining on live.

I can provide examples of Blizzard ignoring PTR/testing feedback too if you want.

And I can provide examples of Blizzard changing things in game due to nothing but whining.

I can also say from experience that Blizzard makes fewer changes due to PTR feedback than it does due to whining. Which is why there's so many MANY things that go live after hundreds of posts of constructive feedback is ignored on the PTR forums.

[Hand Banana]

Now make arms mastery proc 80% weapon damage and its all good.

[Deleted]

I have backed up my claims.

That's were i beg to differ, you can't use your observations as a fact. You're throwing out lots of assumptions and statements but you didn't back them up.

ie: "Rogues and warlocks have by far the smallest communities (least played classes) yet they have a massive forum following that gives A LOT of feedback." But there's no evidence for a correlation between the class representation and their interest in pvp. Mind you the biggest pvp realms across the world are regulary those with a login queue but you won't find any of those at the top of wowprogress.

The game is far more complex and there are a lot of things to consider when you simply tune Mortal Strikes damage by +50%. When Veev turned down warrior it's a clear indicator for me that there's something very wrong, but how many people play at his skill niveau? A dozen, a few hundred, a few thousand? That's similar to those elitist raiders from the top 10 guilds. Blizzard has a super hard job to keep both Joe Average and a potential Blizzcon Champion entertained and given a class with low skillcap & rather small toolset like a warrior (in it's current state) this is a difficult thing to pull off.

Nevertheless you can argue about the ignorance on warrios all you want, if you already got your proofs somehow - what makes you think this should/would change all of the sudden? Because a bored trainee read our posts and brought it up in a conference call? Because we either didn't whine or didn't stick together enough? i'd really like to get your point but even after reading your posts numerous times i sadly don't get it, sorry

On the prot+haste thing: that's exactly where they want to head in the future, so just give it to one class/specc and see how they react before you give it to everyone and probably only get negative feedback. It's a sucess for sure, sadly the implementation rate for other classes is rather long. But as several blueposts already stated: it's not that easy to rebalance entire gearsets in the midst of expansions etc.

[Beefkow]

also i think MS was 225% weapon damage and a 50% healing debuff back in BC.one things for sure MS use to hit hard as shit.i cant be 100% sure on the #'s but im close.maybe it was 200% weapon damage and then + more damage from talents. im 100% sure on the healing debuff # .BC was a long time ago and i was a noob lol.we had more health more Armour and hit harder then any class in the game.the head dev even stated that with everything being equal "player skill and gear" that no class can go toe to toe with an arms warrior.kalgan "i think was his name and he now is or was working on titian" was the head dev before GC got to blizz,yes kalgan mained a warrior .

I was discussing the beginning of MOP (i should of mentioned that in my statement), but thanks for mentioning BC and so on.

But i remember mortal strike always hitting for weapon damage (in fact, every ability) because arms did a GREAT deal of weapon damage, one swing and your target goes from 100% to 80% (remember sword spec back in classic?). Then when cata hit, our weapon damage got weaker thus blizzard had to compensate by giving all of our abilities a better weapon percentage.

And here is the problem currently, our weapon damage is so terrible that our mastery is not even scary,(even if they buffed it to 100% weapon dmg) in fact our special abilities also have a weak weapon percentage.

[meathead]

If it's true, that was a pretty bad design.

how is that bad design?to me its good design.warriors had a role and filled that very very well.i dont think you understand that warriors were designed to be plate wearing powerhouses that reck face when they hit you.

back in BC there were things called pvp and pve specs.aka arms= pvp and fury =pve.the game had better balance because of it.

look over the years at just for example rogues.warriors are supposed to be the anti rogue class.rogues always did good damage and had a ton of cc/utility,but they wear leather,they could not stand "toe to toe" with a MS warrior and expect to win "everything being equal".the rogue would have to do something else to win,vanish and heal or try to cc at the right time.if that rogue just sat there and went toe to toe he would get crushed.

now look at the last few x-pacs.there is not really a difference between plate and leather and warriors lost there big health pools.rogues have kept there cc and burst,so now tell me thats good game design.how can a class like warriors who have lost so much ove rthe years compete with a class like rogues that do just as good is not better burst/damage and have a ton more cc/utility. all the while having the same hit-points and Armour a MS warrior has.how can warriors compete with that?thats right they cant and you get what we have today=shitty as MS warriors in both pvp and pve.o thats right you somehow think thats good game design.

i said that very same thing to a blizz rep one day on the phone when i was shooting the shit with him when he was working on my account.do you know what that blizz rep said,he agreed with me 100%.

tell me what clas can hit you harder with bows/guns more so then hunters?o that right no class can.you need to think before you speak.

- - - Updated - - -

I was discussing the beginning of MOP (i should of mentioned that in my statement), but thanks for mentioning BC and so on.

But i remember mortal strike always hitting for weapon damage (in fact, every ability) because arms did a GREAT deal of weapon damage, one swing and your target goes from 100% to 80% (remember sword spec back in classic?). Then when cata hit, our weapon damage got weaker thus blizzard had to compensate by giving all of our abilities a better weapon percentage.

And here is the problem currently, our weapon damage is so terrible that our mastery is not even scary,(even if they buffed it to 100% weapon dmg) in fact our special abilities also have a weak weapon percentage.

had no clue you were talking about mop,thought you were going old school sadly i never played classic,i was a BC baby lol.i just remember how powerful arms felt back in the day,the big hits the big crits lots of armor and hit-points.its sad to see warriors and the game in its current state.

[Deleted]

Now make arms mastery proc 80% weapon damage and its all good.

That wouldn't do it.

At least for pve, arms needs a lot more than a buff to our mastery. Looking at logs from Durumu 25HC (where i'm wiping right now), in a 6:02 wipe (362s) my procs from mastery did 3.730.410 dmg. If arms mastery was 80% instead of 55%, that would be 5.426.050 dmg, that's 1.695.641 diff or 4.684 dps.

Could be that i'm just terribad, but there's no way i could be close to rogues, uh dks or rets with a 5k dps buff (i don't raid with ferals or enh. atm, but i doubt i could beat any of them).

[Hand Banana]

That wouldn't do it.

At least for pve, arms needs a lot more than a buff to our mastery. Looking at logs from Durumu 25HC (where i'm wiping right now), in a 6:02 wipe (362s) my procs from mastery did 3.730.410 dmg. If arms mastery was 80% instead of 55%, that would be 5.426.050 dmg, that's 1.695.641 diff or 4.684 dps.

Could be that i'm just terribad, but there's no way i could be close to rogues, uh dks or rets with a 5k dps buff (i don't raid with ferals or enh. atm, but i doubt i could beat any of them).

This was aimed at pvp as a way to increase damage without increasing burst since there is was too much already. That and the fact that we may have the worst mastery in the game and it needs something to make it more attractive. Increase mastery damage, and give us a new passive called "Raging Anticipation" that states "when you are 8 or more yards away from your target with the mortal wounds debuff, you generate 2 rage per second." This gives us something to work with when we are off target / being kited. Either that or remove the cd from heroic throw.

That plus what we already have would put arms in the middle of the pack pvp wise and at least somewhere better in a pve setting. Its literally the worst spec in both areas, how could it not need buffs?

Edit: changed my "anticipation" idea.

[Flaks]

Arms needs a buff in burst as well as long as we're sticking with the status quo. If, on the other hand, other classes are having their burst nerfed then we'd be fine. But as it is right now we're pretty much on the low end for burstiness.

[Wazooty]

Just make MS cool again.

[Senen]

how is that bad design?

If no other class/spec with same gear/skill can be on par with one specific class/spec, that class/spec is overpowered.
That's pretty much the situation that best define overpower.

I haven't played a lot during BC (my first 70 was during WotLK...) so I don't know if the quote is exact. But the situation described is a very good example of a badly balanced pvp.

You don't want a class to be above each other. You want balance. And in a game with so many class/spec, that means you want some kind of rock/paper/scissor, because there's no realistic way to put everybody on par.

[cFortyfive]

If no other class/spec with same gear/skill can be on par with one specific class/spec, that class/spec is overpowered.
That's pretty much the situation that best define overpower.

I think you misunderstood that. There are clear winners in 1on1 scenarios now and there have been clear winners back then and those were not really always warriors in fact I doubt that any decent pvper would seriously name warriors as the predominant dueling class of those times. This didn't change one bit.
Warriors were able to deal good damage while they stayed on the target and they paid with their healer/personal dispeller dependency and while warriors were part of the especially in the later stages of the addon stronger 3s comps it wasn't like there haven't been other successful comps over course of the addon. Also a lot of stuff that wasn't warrior was working in 2s as well.
The premise of the quote wasn't that you are supposed to beat everything with a right click - it simply meant that you shouldn't expect to stand in front of a warrior taking all the damage and win just like that from there.
So many years later the overall design goal has shifted towards homogenization but pvp wise the class didn't really move to the same level of self sufficiency a lot of others either had to begin with like frost mages and rogues or got over time which is the problem . Also while I personally would like balance I don't need it for every spec in every comp as this isn't something even remotely achievable given the situation and the resources Blizzard spends on that part of the game.
Anyways to get a bit back on the topic ... I suppose the bloodbath change is just a datamining error as nothing changed on the ptr.

[Deleted]

The warrior was designed in a way that it could soak a fuckton of damage while at the same time being a mobile nuclear bom if you didnt shelter from it.
In these days warriors are stil taught to be capable of doing this according to blizzard but they arent , while rogues stil follow thier rule of `CC NUKE CC NUKe GETTING HIT! SHELTER!` except for the last part with shelter.... they have improved became more durable and so on , unfair

[senturion]

We do a Fukton of burst damage if they don't run or fear us...

[Deleted]

For arms I just want a bleed mastery on crit...something like the old ignite with 15-20% crit dmg as bleed over the next 6 seconds.
Would fix alot of stuff: crit/mastery scaling, burst, overpower being a wet noodle strike...

Why can they never listen?

[Flaks]

We do a Fukton of burst damage if they don't run or fear us...

If by fukton you mean same as or less than literally every single other dps spec then I guess you'd be right.

[Vojka]

I think the biggest flaw in warrior gameplay is colossus smash. The fact that we rely on a 6.5 second window to do all our damage in and feel pretty much useless outside of said 6.5 second window is pretty annoying, especially for switching and such in pvp.

[Mihalik]

Arms needs a buff in burst as well as long as we're sticking with the status quo. If, on the other hand, other classes are having their burst nerfed then we'd be fine. But as it is right now we're pretty much on the low end for burstiness.

When I first seen Avatar in its 5.1 form, I was like- Dun, gon get nurfed!
Then I seen the Heroic Throw silence glyph, and I was like- Dun, gon get nurfed!

And Dun nurfed it was. The thing is they got nerfed because once you combine those with burst, you have a serious problem. That is why I always said, when nerf time came, please please for the love of God, leave our CC/Utility alone and nerf the burst.

Of course Blizz being the retarded fucktards that they are, first the nerf CC, then when that doesn't do the trick they nerf mobility, when that still doesn't do the trick they nerf some of the burst, and surprise surprise you just balanced a class into unplayable. Well done GG. Of course at this point they can't just say...Ooops we suck at this, maybe we should fix it now! No, instead they spend months upon months, first explaining their "intentions", then saying "we don't see the problem, x number still play", then comes silence and no further discussion of the topic until next patch, when some half hearted retarded change is made, which is promptly then hotfix nerfed, and so on and on all the way until the next expansion when they COMPLETELY redesign the class AGAIN. And the cycle repeats itself.

This could have been fixed at the start very very easy. Admit that Avatar is not a PvE cooldown. Keep the extra rage on it, keep the mobility component on it, and nerf the fucking shit out of the add damage side, reduce it to 5% or remove it completely, making it an extra rage+Hof thing. Leave the silences alone, letting Warriors keep their proactive utility and GG fixed.

If at that point people would have still been facerolled by warriors, they could have further reduced damage on things like Dragon Roar/Shockwave and simply move the burst damage over and bake it into Deep Wounds. This way you still do all the sustained damage, you still have the PvE damage, and you can control burst.

[Deleted]

Arms needs a buff in burst as well as long as we're sticking with the status quo.

I've a slightly different approach (for PvE), bluntly stolen from rets 5.3 buff:

Seasoned Soldier +40% instead of +25% damage increase. This should put us exactly in the middle of the pack without adding to much damage to a certain ability ("burst" potential).

For comparison: Sword of Light went from +15% to +30% damage and ret went from zero to bg hero

Sadly i've a hard time coming up with a reasonable solution for pvp, i personally like to see more ways to get out of roots (hello monks glove bonus) but depending on your setup this must not be your problem. Adjusting mastery %damage won't help our reliable burst potential, yes it would add a reasonable amount of pressure but without any control about that. That won't help us in a pvp environment.

[Pheros]

I've a slightly different approach (for PvE), bluntly stolen from rets 5.3 buff:

Seasoned Soldier +40% instead of +25% damage increase. This should put us exactly in the middle of the pack without adding to much damage to a certain ability ("burst" potential).

For comparison: Sword of Light went from +15% to +30% damage and ret went from zero to bg hero

Sadly i've a hard time coming up with a reasonable solution for pvp, i personally like to see more ways to get out of roots (hello monks glove bonus) but depending on your setup this must not be your problem. Adjusting mastery %damage won't help our reliable burst potential, yes it would add a reasonable amount of pressure but without any control about that. That won't help us in a pvp environment.

I like this idea a lot.

As for your last comment, I'd like to see something added back to Avatar like in addition to breaking roots, maybe making us immune for ~3 seconds.