5.4 KJC changes.

[Szarala]

For those reasons, players pick up the one with the most tangiable benefit; in this case KJC, and it's so game altering that they can't imagine playing without it because it does make things easier most of the time; whatever anyone says. The result is people stick with it, and want to keep it, even in circumstances that might not favour it (I keep seeing people talking about using it on Horridon and Tortos N for example). And they do that, because the alternatives bear absolutely no relation to their preferred choice. I can imagine players switching between mobility talents or DPS talents according to which would be best on an encounter, but picking between 3 unrelated choices is never going to draw people out of their comfort zone.

..and is this a bad thing? Talents are supposed to be part of what defines your character and one of my biggest gripes with MoP is how trivial it is to switch them.
Diversity in talents is fine.. the problem is if 90% of the playerbase is picking a specific one, then that means the other two are too unattractive or that there is something fundamentally wrong with the class itself that taking that specific talent seems necessary, not necessarily that the popular talent itself is problematic.

[Deleted]

Admittedly, AV is very poor. But MF isn't crap - I am far more concerned about the nerf to that than I am KJC as it's actually necessary for Demonology in some circumstances, and is essentially why we got to keep Hellfire rather than be changed to RoF.

Essentially, the tier is comprised of completely random utility which is pretty unique when you look at every other talent tier in the game. Generally speaking, there's a strong theme across all three talents elsewhere, but here they bear no relation to eachother. Further, players broadly pick a tree and stick with what suits them (or what EJ tells them) so they don't really try out the others.

For those reasons, players pick up the one with the most tangiable benefit; in this case KJC, and it's so game altering that they can't imagine playing without it because it does make things easier most of the time; whatever anyone says. The result is people stick with it, and want to keep it, even in circumstances that might not favour it (I keep seeing people talking about using it on Horridon and Tortos N for example). And they do that, because the alternatives bear absolutely no relation to their preferred choice. I can imagine players switching between mobility talents or DPS talents according to which would be best on an encounter, but picking between 3 unrelated choices is never going to draw people out of their comfort zone.

MF is still way way more situational than KJC tho, even as demo, but yeah on some encounters its very useful like tortos and durumu hc but other than that i cant see any real reason to have MF atleast not in most normal fights, and most of the time it can be solved by going a couple of yards close to the intended target.

well it doesnt exactly take a rocket scientist to see which talent is crappy and why and when they are crappy. AV i tried using a couple of times on bosses where i knew there would be regular aoe or self dmg like blade lord, didnt see any change in my dps at all but you're right, ppl are very focused on KJC since its the "go-to" talent particular for afflic(withthat said, it is also infinitely more important that afflic had something like KJC in its current form) and ofc every1 would take it especially when your other options are either crap or situational like AV and MF.

[hammock]

As others have said, we're balanced around having it. If anything, it might be argued that it's detrimental since it's limiting the potential for good play to get that little extra. Same thing the Hunters asking for Aspects/Sniper Training are saying.

Arguing lack of instants is a little disingenuos too. Granted there aren't many in the basic rotation, but much of the time Fel Flame is going to be neutral/beneficial to your dots. Sometime it will be detremental yes, but SPriests have the same issue and they don't even have Pandemic.

If we are balanced around KJC then whats the problem? Changing it requires so much change that makes the classa worse as a result.
That's debatable.
Its hardly disingenuous. My point still stands. Fel flame is largly useless so stop bringing that up.There's no middle ground with it. Either its going to remain useless, or its going to be buffed to the point where we just jump around spamming fel flame in pve/pvp. It already costs too much for
Really wish people would stop bringing up SPriests. Yes your movement is poor, but we aren't priests. The priest forums are that way.

Admittedly, AV is very poor. But MF isn't crap - I am far more concerned about the nerf to that than I am KJC as it's actually necessary for Demonology in some circumstances, and is essentially why we got to keep Hellfire rather than be changed to RoF.

Essentially, the tier is comprised of completely random utility which is pretty unique when you look at every other talent tier in the game. Generally speaking, there's a strong theme across all three talents elsewhere, but here they bear no relation to eachother. Further, players broadly pick a tree and stick with what suits them (or what EJ tells them) so they don't really try out the others.

For those reasons, players pick up the one with the most tangiable benefit; in this case KJC, and it's so game altering that they can't imagine playing without it because it does make things easier most of the time; whatever anyone says. The result is people stick with it, and want to keep it, even in circumstances that might not favour it (I keep seeing people talking about using it on Horridon and Tortos N for example). And they do that, because the alternatives bear absolutely no relation to their preferred choice. I can imagine players switching between mobility talents or DPS talents according to which would be best on an encounter, but picking between 3 unrelated choices is never going to draw people out of their comfort zone.

I'd consider MF crap. A few niche fights isn't enough for me.
h

[Grizelda]

Hmmm, that is an interesting and valid point. Let me reconsider my position taking your views and experiences into account.

Said NO ONE is this forum.

[Count Zero]

It's overpopular and unintended are more than enough reason for them to give.

Unintended I find to be a cop-out on their end considering they let us have it for a tier and a half, but if they say that's the case it's hard to argue since their talking point there likely won't change.

Overpopular I don't think is a good argument. Everyone took glyph for 4 shards / 4 embers, it got baked in. Every ele sham took lightning bolt on the move, it got baked in.

What I'd like to see are folks of other classes (or folks familiar with other classes) who can comment on under/over-utilized talents ... I know some adjustments were made to priest level 45 talent tier, but I can't remember if they buffed or nerfed to make the choice more of a choice.

[Gohzerlock]

No offense but you sound like you are talking down to a child with the way you have worded your post. HoT is but a crumb compared to the loss of our main dish of KJC and MF. Will we as a class be able survive with scraps like HoT while the real meat and more important of our talents are just taken away?

HoT is nigh useless in regards to how much we lost with fel armor nerf and nerfs to KJC and MF. Your responses sounds more like a scripted customer service rep than anything else.

---------- Post added 2013-06-17 at 12:47 AM ----------



You sir have won the internets. Thank you for giving a bit of hope to the black hole that is my heart.

I thought jessicka was a blizz dev?

[Sarange]

I had a glimpse of the future.

They make a fel flame glyph wich makes it act like a MG tick, instead of extending dots.
(That with castable on the move haunt and, a minor mana reduction, would be more than okay by me)
They feel its to mandatory/op for aff locks and revert the change.

Damn, that would actually be nice in pvp, too nice probably.

[Deleted]

Admittedly, AV is very poor. But MF isn't crap - I am far more concerned about the nerf to that than I am KJC as it's actually necessary for Demonology in some circumstances, and is essentially why we got to keep Hellfire rather than be changed to RoF.

MF isn't crap, but it's apples to a gameboy advanced.

It's like going to a cafe for a meal and being offered a pain killer, a cup of coffee or a bag of sand.

The pain killer is really useful if you've got a headache, you'll take that every time. The bag of sand is completely useless, and otherwise you may as well take the cup of coffee, since at least you can enjoy that.

If you're going to have a talent tier that wildly different, blizzard need to accept that one talent is going to win out over the others in the majority of situations, they should be trying to make the other two nice in their niche environments (as MF was). Otherwise, redesign the tier so the talents are actually able to compare and compete with each other.

It's ridiculously op. The fact all these locks think its the end of the world attests to this.

How? I've seen a few people throw this around, but not a single person has been able to explain to me why it's overpowered, what fights that we use KJC on are we overpowered on because of it? Or are you going to try and tell me warlocks are overpowered in pvp?

Seriously, you may think it "feels" overpowered, but try providing some evidence on what fights warlocks are totally destroying people on because of this talent, then your argument might have some substance to it.

They are even talking about compensating locks by giving some spells that require up time the ability to be cast while moving (w/o a movement penalty).

By giving us an ability we don't have any use for on the move and is already a quick cast? Yeah, just what we need. An ability that makes an enemy taking x% more damage isn't much use when you can't apply any damage because you're moving and it actively drains resources that could be used later.

No, you do not need to be able to cast chaos bolts while moving.

No one is asking for that.

No you do not need to be able to do, passively, what other classes have as a CD, no you're not the only class dependent on a filler spell they cannot cast while moving,

But we are the only class that has NO spells that are legitimate choices to cast while moving, why is that okay for us to be the only ones that have that unique "ability"?

Why is it okay to have a unique disadvantage, but not okay to have a unique advantage?

in fact you were the only class that COULD cast a filler spell while moving, yes you needed this nerf.

You're either ignorant or a liar.

Elemental shaman can cast almost their full rotation.
Hunters can cast while moving.
Every other class in the game has SOMETHING to cast while moving.

[Sarange]

It's ridiculously op. The fact all these locks think its the end of the world attests to this. They are even talking about compensating locks by giving some spells that require up time the ability to be cast while moving (w/o a movement penalty). No, you do not need to be able to cast chaos bolts while moving. No you do not need to be able to do, passively, what other classes have as a CD, no you're not the only class dependent on a filler spell they cannot cast while moving, in fact you were the only class that COULD cast a filler spell while moving, yes you needed this nerf.

Yes warlocks were ridiculous far ahead on dps and no other class could keep up.

No, we didnt need this nerf but, i will say its unfair for some of the other casters having to sit still while we could move.
You seem awfully bitter about it.

Oh, there are classes who can cast their fillers on the move but, ill let you find out who by yourself.

[Deleted]

Could anyone post in the US KJC thread? I'm EU so I can't but I think that all the people there are missing the core of the problem =

The problem with KJC isn't KJC itself, it is the fact that LVL 90 tier doesn't have any theme common for all the three talents.

If there were three different talents that help you with dealing damage on the move in some way or reducing the DPS lost from moving, the problem might not even exist. Some would prefer talent X, some would prefer talent Z.

But if the tier is about "random utility", of course some spec will be stuck with only one choice (KJC better for affli, MF for Destro and Demo).

This tier to me feels like developers had an idea for three talents, but they didn't really know where to put them, so they just put them in the tier together.

It's like putting Chaos Bolt and Haunt in the tier and wondering why all affliction locks take Haunt. Well as with KJC they take it because being able to cast on the move as affli is much more important that casting on the move for destro. And vice versa with MF for Destro.

I say, either come up with completely new talents or pick one and design its two counterparts within the theme (e.g. new 2 "damage on the move" talents).

[Jessicka]

MF isn't crap, but it's apples to a gameboy advanced.

It's like going to a cafe for a meal and being offered a pain killer, a cup of coffee or a bag of sand.

The pain killer is really useful if you've got a headache, you'll take that every time. The bag of sand is completely useless, and otherwise you may as well take the cup of coffee, since at least you can enjoy that.

If you're going to have a talent tier that wildly different, blizzard need to accept that one talent is going to win out over the others in the majority of situations, they should be trying to make the other two nice in their niche environments (as MF was). Otherwise, redesign the tier so the talents are actually able to compare and compete with each other.

That is pretty much exactly what I'm saying. You could have MF in a tier that also contained something like Inferno Blast and Havoc, and KJC could be in a tier with Darkness Comes Light and Sprint (just random examples of abilities not serious this is what we need) - that way you'd be comparing each with it's own theme, where situationally and preferentially you'd have valid choices between them. That's not what's happening now; it's a matter of picking the one that fits most circumstances most of the time which is of course KJC.

That's not to say KJC is balanced, because it isn't, because it's such random utility within an unrelated tier that it's not properly balanced within our toolkit of mobility, CC and defensive cooldowns for which there is only certain budget for.

[Brusalk]

Hmmm, that is an interesting and valid point. Let me reconsider my position taking your views and experiences into account.

Said NO ONE is this forum.

I do it frequently if someone proves my thinking invalid or incorrect.

---------- Post added 2013-06-17 at 04:26 PM ----------

I'm sorry, but this doesn't hold water. You'd just argue that you'd been using it for years come 6.0.

Ghostcrawler has repeatedly said that they hold off on class-changing changes until expansions, because they have the belief that changing too much in a patch in an expansion is just too much for the common player to handle.

The KjC/MF change is just that. It's a significant change to how Warlocks play mid-expansion.

[Grizelda]

Mmm sorry. I suppose I really meant in the past couple of exchanges. I should avoid hyperbole. Just wanted to make the point that it's a good thing to do.

[Keldion]

I had a glimpse of the future.

They make a fel flame glyph wich makes it act like a MG tick, instead of extending dots.
(That with castable on the move haunt and, a minor mana reduction, would be more than okay by me)
They feel its to mandatory/op for aff locks and revert the change.

Damn, that would actually be nice in pvp, too nice probably.

I made a suggestion like that earlier in this thread.

[Jessicka]

Ghostcrawler has repeatedly said that they hold off on class-changing changes until expansions, because they have the belief that changing too much in a patch in an expansion is just too much for the common player to handle.

The KjC/MF change is just that. It's a significant change to how Warlocks play mid-expansion.

I'm not convinced reverting to Fel Flame, where we were just a few months ago and had been for two and a half years prior is all that radical. Especially when you'd been continuing to do that when you swapped out for MF anyway. I'd think it was more radical to revert after 2 1/2 tiers come 6.0.

[Grizelda]

The idea is that if it was reviewed between expansions it could be looked at and balanced more fully, more elegantly, rather then the hack slash job most of us expect.


Quite frankly, it would also give me hope that they could find a way to keep and expand upon caster movement.

[Jessicka]

The idea is that if it was reviewed between expansions it could be looked at and balanced more fully, more elegantly, rather then the hack slash job most of us expect.

Quite frankly, it would also give me hope that they could find a way to keep and expand upon caster movement.

They could still do that. But as it is, it's just easier to nerf the shit out of it than try to rework the role of melee and the mobility issues of at least 6 other ranged DPS specs in the game mid-expansion. I'm also not sure how wise neutering such a self evidently successful cornerstone of encounter design that the 'movement check' is, would be, mid-expansion.

[Grizelda]

The options as I see it: No change needed to KJC (seems debatable)

Change KJC and rebalance around it (have read many pages intelligently expressing the reasons)

Change KJC and leave all else alone (personally what I think will happen cause, you know, too much change)

[Brusalk]

They could still do that. But as it is, it's just easier to nerf the shit out of it than try to rework the role of melee and the mobility issues of at least 6 other ranged DPS specs in the game mid-expansion. I'm also not sure how wise neutering such a self evidently successful cornerstone of encounter design that the 'movement check' is, would be, mid-expansion.

What is the reason for having to rework the other specs mid-expansion?

I do not, and I have yet to, see any actual factual proof that KjC causes Warlocks to be stronger than all others by a significant margin on any fight in ToT


You keep talking like this has to happen, right now. I just don't see why it has to happen now and can't be done between expansions, when significant changes to playstyles has traditionally occured.


Please, enlighten me, but I just don't see it yet.

[xskarma]

BIG update, source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...?page=111#2202

Got a few updates for you guys. Standard disclaimer applies that this is all still in early testing and subject to change.

Fel Flame has gotten a slight rework. It now has a 1.5 second cast time, but can always be cast while moving. Also, it no longer extends the duration of damage over time effects (and, as such, no longer causes them to lose their "snapshotted" stats) and has gotten a small damage buff. The intent here is that you should be able to use this to keep up some damage when you need to move, but you'll want to stick to your standard rotation otherwise.

Looking specifically at Affliction, we're lowering the bonus damage that Malefic Grasp provides and moving that damage over into Haunt and the DoT effects themselves to compensate. We still want Malefic Grasp to be your primary filler for single target DPS, but this will make it a bit less punishing when you can't afford to channel it (especially in PvP). Haunt will once again be interrupted by movement, in favor of the Fel Flame change.

There's been a couple adjustments to the level 90 talents as well. Both Kil'Jaeden's Cunning and Mannoroth's Fury have had their cooldowns and durations lowered to 60 and 10 seconds, respectively. Mannoroth's Fury now only applies to the core AoE damage spells (Seed of Corruption, Hellfire, Immolation Aura, and Rain of Fire), but increases their damage by 100% while active in addition to the range increase. Note that Rain of Fire is being changed to no longer generate enough Burning Embers to be worth using in a single target rotation (so, Destruction shouldn't feel forced into Mannoroth's Fury).

These should hopefully be hitting the PTR in the next build. Once again, please remember that we're very early in the 5.4 development process. Any or all of this may still change before the patch goes live.