[Balance] 5.4 Changes and Thoughts

[huth]

Unless a DK mass grips 10 people, and it hits them all for 180k, 1.8mil damage every 10seconds IS op. You're choosing to look at the numbers on a single target, and lets be honest if you're using mushrooms on a single target you're playing poorly.

Yes, but that isn't the scenario in question. It's also not very likely unless you just happened to get a Lei Shen's proc.

[xtramuscle]

Yes, but that isn't the scenario in question. It's also not very likely unless you just happened to get a Lei Shen's proc.

Oh so the only part you have a problem with is the crit% ? So 900k burst aoe off the gcd is completely acceptable?

[huth]

Oh so the only part you have a problem with is the crit% ? So 900k burst aoe off the gcd is completely acceptable?

No, i'm having a problem with you completely ignoring the context. There are no 10 people nor a DK in this scenario, it was about using Cyclone to set up 1 person to take 90k "burst".

I also find your proposed scenario acceptable, as the effort to set it up is quite considerable.

[xtramuscle]

I wouldn't exactly call 90k 'burst'. That's not even 20% of most people's healthpool. Why would use clone someone just to hit them with that? You'd be better of hard casting starfire, or pretty much any other spell. Not to mention, why would you waste a gcd (even on instant clone) THEN to drop and detonate a shroom underthem, when you could just do that out right?

[huth]

You'll have to ask Slapsgiving about that. I have no fucking idea why anybody would even consider doing this, much less why he thinks that would be an issue.

[Slapsgiving]

You'll have to ask Slapsgiving about that. I have no fucking idea why anybody would even consider doing this, much less why he thinks that would be an issue.

In Cata, that move alone combined with a well-timed SS could take 50% of a player's health pool easily, every time. So, you are saying that if they buff mushrooms to do significant damage -and I mean significant, not current, useless damage- you will not use an insta-nuke every 10 secs with a free snare incorporated because it is AoE?

Additionally, Blizzard already has stated they do not like mechanics like Ursol's Vortex + Solar Beam cause they feel mandatory in RBGs. You think they will look kindly upon adding mushrooms to the mix with a significant damage buff?

This is not trivial, I am pretty sure it will be the single-target capabilities of the spell the ones limiting its damage, especially now that they want to reduce burst in PvP. I do not think it is a wild dream or a stretch of the imagination, looks pretty darn obvious to me and it is not easy to balance unless they change how the spell works.

[huth]

No, i'm saying they won't buff Mushrooms.

[Slippykins]

While this thread is for discussion on 5.4 changes, could we keep the conversation civil? There's a fine line between debate and debarcle.

[Slapsgiving]

While this thread is for discussion on 5.4 changes, could we keep the conversation civil? There's a fine line between debate and debarcle.

I apologize if I have come off as uncivil at any point, really not trying to become the sole victor of the Mushroom Wars. Hoping they do buff them, and trying to think of a plausible way to do it -if any.

[xtramuscle]

I apologize if I have come off as uncivil at any point, really not trying to become the sole victor of the Mushroom Wars. Hoping they do buff them, and trying to think of a plausible way to do it -if any.

Making them to the same damage they do now, but apply a Fungal Parasite DOT as well as the Fungal Growth snare would both greatly increase their damage, without making them too bursty for single and multi target pve and pvp.

[Aboubacar]

You can already set up 3 mushrooms in a clone or under and iceblock. It didn't do insane burst in cata when mushrooms were actually strong. This isn't even a glyph you would want for pvp. Would you give up barkskin, cyclone, or moonbeast glyph for pvp? Doubtful

Hopefully the change just adds flavor to the hurricane spam aoe "rotation" and maybe brings balance sustained/clump AE damage up a bit. Atm it's a fairly big weakness for the spec.

3 mushrooms isn't bursty at all for pve either? As far as I understand this is just saving us 2 globals, and possibly making it so you can plant, detonate, hurricane for 8 seconds, plant detonate repeat and strengthen its value as a movement filler. Mushrooms truly aren't bursty right now. I don't understand how this is even under debate.

[Slippykins]

3 mushrooms isn't bursty at all for pve either? As far as I understand this is just saving us 2 globals, and possibly making it so you can plant, detonate, hurricane for 8 seconds, plant detonate repeat and strengthen its value as a movement filler. Mushrooms truly aren't bursty right now. I don't understand how this is even under debate.

If the Mushroom's damage is increased by x%, its DPET will go up and could bump it significantly past the DPET of Hurricane, meaning it should be used on cooldown. 35% is a rough estimate of the damage bonus required for the singular Mushroom to become potent enough.

It's not really bursty, but could be a very slight DPS increase when used properly. So you're correct, it might just become part of our AoE rotation, but it wouldn't be excessive burst damage.

[huth]

Which probably wouldn't be that bad. A little help to our AoE (as opposed to multi-dotting) wouldn't hurt.

[apepi]

If the Mushroom's damage is increased by x%, its DPET will go up and could bump it significantly past the DPET of Hurricane, meaning it should be used on cooldown. 35% is a rough estimate of the damage bonus required for the singular Mushroom to become potent enough.

It's not really bursty, but could be a very slight DPS increase when used properly. So you're correct, it might just become part of our AoE rotation, but it wouldn't be excessive burst damage.

How about having the Mushrooms spread dots? Dk's symbiosis even does this. Then they could change hurricane some way.

[Deleted]

How about having the Mushrooms spread dots? Dk's symbiosis even does this. Then they could change hurricane some way.

Would be too powerful, if it spreads our moonfire/sunfire, even in their noneclipsed state. Consider this: tortos, plock a mushroom down, have it spread sunfire, and you get an absurd amount of starsurge procs, whilst also having dots ticking on those bats.

If you want dots, they have to make it a separate dot.

[Shyzhi]

How about having the Mushrooms spread dots? Dk's symbiosis even does this. Then they could change hurricane some way.

Iv always thought shrooms (depending on eclipse we are in) should apply the most powerful dot, Or even make it so DK sym gives us Pestilence or somthing.. i think most of Symbiosis needs a rework. Alot of the spells seem useless but can have there place. I only ever use it on a rogue really.. would be nice if warriors / DKs / Paladins or even monks gave us somthing nice to use so i could buff out tanks with it.

Going back to the mushroom "Argument" if we did do the "clone / mushrooms *burst*" we would cast a starfire or somthing first so its like 150k or so damage in 1 hit if it did crit.

Just wondering about the treants in 5.4 is it going to be ONE treant who does damage or stay as 3? when there abused with haste there funny as hell and do alot of damage. Almost killed a full tyran shaman friend in 20secs with just them abuseing haste (Meta gem / Berserkering / Naturesgrace + haste breakpoint) none of my dots or starfall.

All in all 5.4 looks nice for moonkins seems we can get 2 burst self heals what can be nice. Id like to see some changes to make it easier for us to cast in pvp or even silence.... the FF glyph for bears what makes it silence for 2secs? id love that to be for every spec. and make FF like 15-20sec CD or somthing.

Would be too powerful, if it spreads our moonfire/sunfire, even in their noneclipsed state. Consider this: tortos, plock a mushroom down, have it spread sunfire, and you get an absurd amount of starsurge procs, whilst also having dots ticking on those bats.

If you want dots, they have to make it a separate dot.

They "could" do the same there doing with warlocks corruption for affi, only the "latest" corruption can proc there shards. Could make it so dots applied via mushrooms can NOT proc our shooting stars. ID gladly take that xD so i can shroom and then hurricane. Annoys on me on some trash like before Ion Qon you see a WW monk pop like 600k DPS and im at like 300k and all he does is spinning crain kick lol while im like swapping from eclipse to eclipse trying to keep my NG up as much as possible xD

[Broodling67]

...Or even make it so DK sym gives us Pestilence or somthing.. i think most of Symbiosis needs a rework. Alot of the spells seem useless but can have there place. I only ever use it on a rogue really.. would be nice if warriors / DKs / Paladins or even monks gave us somthing nice to use so i could buff out tanks with it...

I like Anti-Magic Shell from DK's, I don't know what you are talking about with them not giving us anything nice. A Pestilence like effect for spreading DoT's sounds nice but I'm not sure I want it over having access to AMS. I do agree that Symbiosis could use some more compelling choices though.

[Slippykins]

On the topic of mushrooms spreading DoTs (all numbers below use BiS gear in WrathCalcs):

Say that on 7 targets the best DPS comes from Hurricaning 100%. Let's also say Hurricane lasts 6.67 seconds (correlating to 10402 haste) and does 423683 damage per target over that duration. Therefore, the DPS of Hurricane over 7 targets is 423683*7/6.67 = 444645 DPS.

Let's now add in a mushroom that applies just a single Sunfire to all targets (since that seems the most logical if we're in a Solar eclipse). Damage of the mushroom is 47531 per target, and a Sunfire will do 409096 per target (no direct damage component). Since the DoT will last a bit longer than two Hurricanes, we'll say a cycle is Mushroom -> Hurricane -> Hurricane. Therefore, DPS for this scenario is instead (47531*7+409096*7+423683*7*2)/(1+6.67*2) = 636537 DPS.

This is a 43.16% DPS increase, and since this scales directly with targets (you can pull the 7 out of each expression), it'd be a 43% AoE DPS increase regardless of targets (you'd still need to meet the Hurricane threshold). This is taking into account disabling SS procs from the Sunfires. Do we really need such a large AoE DPS increase? Will it have unintended effects and consequences? What if, instead of applying a Sunfire the mushroom applied Moonfire, meaning our AoE damage would be a little more even between Lunar and Solar? Another possible alteration could be making the DoT have half the normal duration but the same tick rate, so that you'd be forced to spend that extra mushroom GCD every Hurricane, and would also halve the DPET of the DoT.

It'd be an interesting concept, and could tie in well with our strength in multi-dotting while not being terribly overpowered by generating SS procs. Since GC hinted they're still working on some things for Boomkins in the future PTR iterations, maybe we'll see something we mentioned here.

[apepi]

Would be too powerful, if it spreads our moonfire/sunfire, even in their noneclipsed state. Consider this: tortos, plock a mushroom down, have it spread sunfire, and you get an absurd amount of starsurge procs, whilst also having dots ticking on those bats.

If you want dots, they have to make it a separate dot.

Maybe have Shrooms give the sunfire debuff and have hurricane give the moonfire debuff. And maybe have a percentage that will get dotted, or maybe have a certain limit on how many could be effected.

One of the thing I do not like about druids is that with other class whenever you do something it generally not only damages the target but also does other things. Frostbolt slows, arcane shot puts up hunters mark, and etc. Druids moves are just so bland. Everything we do is reactive. If we want to use a slow, we have to push that, we want to heal? Gotta push the button. This is not bad in itself but when other classes don't have to that it diminishes it. They were going to give starsurge a stun but they took that away awfully fucking fast.

[Sunfyre]

You forget that we can extend DoTs with our nukes. That's something.