[Balance] 5.4 Changes and Thoughts

[Fizzlekin]

My whole point is what is the point of an buff that procs so much, we can't use it to it's full capabilities. Not saying it's the worst thing possible, but I don't understand why they would give us that 4 piece unless they had some way to account for the amount of SS procs we are getting. I mean SS wastage has become a part of how we analyze our logs, and is discussed quite at length by most. I just think they have to address this issue at some point.

[xtramuscle]

Yeah I agree. typically we're now balanced around not casting half of our procs. But the only way to combat that would make it hit harder (can i get a lol?) and less often. Which would have people screaming about a lack of dps on the move again..

[lappee]

The fact that we can even waste 50% of our SS procs is just bad design. What other class wastes 50% of their procs? Now I could be wrong, but I don't believe there are any. If they don't find a way to account for this, just seems like an awful design.

In my opinion, its all about players skill. Sure there will always be some SS wastage but better players will have lower % (as long as its a dps increase). Managing SS procs is the only thing atm in our rotation that makes it "interesting". To me its one of the best designs so far for moonkins in history of WoW

[daerellin]

A stacking mechanic for Shooting Stars procs would be a pretty good DPS increase, and I honestly don't think we need it. We're in a very good place right now, though granted our power doesn't start to shine until very specific stages of gearing. Perhaps they should focus on our earlier scalability, in an effort to encourage people to stick with the spec instead of being turned off from it shortly after hitting 90.

I kind of enjoy how SS works now, because it's another one of those little methods we can use to differentiate ourselves from our peers. The gap between a skilled Boomkin and an equally geared one who is just along for the ride is pretty large, and it is nice to see the obvious results of your research paying off.

People get too caught up in WoL parses, and often forget that the top people there have usually just found some form of cheese strat to execute, or tunnel the boss/unimportant adds instead of maintaining effective DPS while making use of our massive raid utility.

My only real complaint about the spec at the moment (aside from some sort of change to Symbiosis) is that I would really like them to make mushrooms usable again. If I have to work my butt off to generate decent AoE, I'm fine with that, even if someone else simply has to push one button to destroy everything. The major thing that keeps me attached to Moonkin is the fact that there are so many opportunities to leverage your skill towards incredibly satisfying results.

tl;dr: For the most part we're fine.

[Aboubacar]

literally everything about balance is fine besides clumped and sustained aoe. TBH the spec is too easy/mindless starsurge spam. Lot like mindless lava burst spam from eles. If aoe playstyle is going to stay the same then hurricane needs a flat-out massive damage buff. Else, mushrooms need to be weaved back in, hopefully with the NYI glyph i saw a while back.

I think its hilarious that lappee is making an attempt to correlate reacting to SS procs with skill. Idk maybe some people just have awful reaction times, but good MS, a working keyboard, and the default shooting stars aura is all you need to be skilled now I guess?

The biggest mistake I see players make, even "good players" still is double dotting adds instead of applying eclipsed dots first + the SS proc weaving next followed by uneclipsed dot and poor DoT management in general. Of course this can vary a little with encounters due to mob priority. Skill comes in from adapting your rotation to new encounters before other players while executing the encounter properly as well, not reacting to an aura by pressing a button.

@daerellin
For players with the same gear there's very little difference between someone that executed perfectly and someone that made 10+ mistakes, just in their rotation alone during an encounter. Unless they forget a major ability like starfall or don't use 3 minute cds the difference is usually small. Also RPPM rng can make the less skilled player do more damage in a lot of situations.

[huth]

My whole point is what is the point of an buff that procs so much, we can't use it to it's full capabilities. Not saying it's the worst thing possible, but I don't understand why they would give us that 4 piece unless they had some way to account for the amount of SS procs we are getting. I mean SS wastage has become a part of how we analyze our logs, and is discussed quite at length by most. I just think they have to address this issue at some point.

Your problem is thinking that any wastage means less than full capability. It doesn't. Full capability already includes some wasted procs.

[Fizzlekin]

It shouldn't have been the case in the first place that something would be designed to have proc wastage is my point. I have no problem with how balance druids current state is. People were just complaining about how much having a 4 piece that decreased the CD of CA by 5 seconds when entering a new eclipse would not be a huge benefit and force into certain talents. Yeah this 4 piece is a DPS increase, I just think it's an awful design for a 4 piece considering the fact all we will be doing is SS spamming. There have been a ton of ideas for a 4 piece that would increase our damage, while also keeping the class interesting. I just find spamming SS procs not to be the most exciting rotation that we could have.

It is very ironic how when a class gets a damage increase of any sort people just seem to love it regardless of it makes sense for the class, and right now giving us even more SS procs just didn't make sense.

- - - Updated - - -

Your problem is thinking that any wastage means less than full capability. It doesn't. Full capability already includes some wasted procs.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize full capability meant how fast I can click a key to spam SS...There is no skill in that. Skill isn't how much damage you can do on a fight because we all know certain guilds have better strategies than others. Skill relies on the players ability to adapt to the situation, and still be able to perform.

[Cybb]

This may be coming from left field, but has anyone thought about how the new 4pc can allow us no longer gem full crit and instead start switching them out for int/other secondary stats to combat the heavy SS wastage we will see at the higher crit levels. It is too soon to tell how to this will affect us completely, but I have a lot of hope for this 4pc, and it is a definite improvement over the old 4pc.

[huth]

I'm sorry, I didn't realize full capability meant how fast I can click a key to spam SS...There is no skill in that. Skill isn't how much damage you can do on a fight because we all know certain guilds have better strategies than others. Skill relies on the players ability to adapt to the situation, and still be able to perform.

You didn't even understand what i said. There is no issue. Wastage is simply something that happens, it's not actually a problem.

[primalfears]

Crit is still better then the other secondary and i believe so is int so if anything we would put pure int gems in or int hit for blues

[Fizzlekin]

You didn't even understand what i said. There is no issue. Wastage is simply something that happens, it's not actually a problem.

I completely understood what you said. Right now it's not an issue. My point was only that I don't think that Blizzard wanted us to be spamming our SS by the end of the expansion. This was not part of their initial design for us, and I assuming that the changes for us that GC was speaking about with have an effect on SS.

There is nothing wrong with SS wastage right now. I completely understand, but my point that you are not getting is that it should have never gotten to the point where we are wasting SS procs as much as we are because it's a stupid design in any system to have excess of anything that is not needed.

I just don't think applying dots, and spamming SS is that enjoyable of a class.

[Cyous]

I find it annoying when people talk about SS wastage without 'really' considering some important factors:
- When are you "wasting" procs in your Eclipse phase?
- Are you multi-dotting everything and their mother? Or is it single-target? Maybe it's just a couple targets?
- How many DOT tick crits were you getting in that time? (this should be very similar to your active raid Crit percentage)

Go check your WoL parses on an encounter, like Iron Qon, and set the page from the start to "before all the dogs come out." Check whether or not you're really wasting a massive amount of procs. Compare it to Horridon or Council (multi-dot-fest). There are so many factors and variables to consider, simply saying "Oh, well I have 56% wastage already! This 4pc sucks...rabblerabblerabble" simply is not 'acceptable', in my opinion, because the data you're using isn't telling the whole story..

For the sake of trying to get my point across:
Iron Qon -25H (just a rough estimate of pre-P4 (dogs))
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=9196&e=9446
DOTs: 449 total, 201 crit (44% rate)
SS proc: 59 (60 projected SS procs)
SS cast: 43 (27% wastage)

And P4 and P5 without the rest of the encounter?
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=9446&e=9574
DOTs: 402 total, 192 crit (48% rate)
SS proc: 56 (57 projected SS procs)
SS cast: 25 (52% wastage)

And when I add P4 and P5?
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=9200&e=9574
DOTs: 849 total, 391 crit (46% rate)
SS proc: 115 (117 projected SS procs)
SS cast: 68 (41% wastage)

~

What can I learn about my own parse? Well, for starters, 27% SS wastage is pretty good. My DOT crits are in varying percentages due to trinket procs, and having BoH and Cha'Ye certainly increase my effective Crit rating. My SS procs are consistent with the 30% chance to trigger. When I factor in the "multi-dot" phase of the encounter, my Crit stay constant, as do my SS procs, and my SS procs go wasted far more often. Whether or not that's due to refreshing Eclipsed DOTs before pushing the next Eclipse...I'd need to look into it more. But a 50% wastage is consistent with the complaints in this discussion. If I factor the entire fight, my SS usage looks awful. The waste by 41% is quite high, though it's not really that bad.

What changes can I make for the T16 4pc? -- I simply do not change my single-target at all. For multi-dotting, using the non-Eclipsed DOT is completely useless due to the flood of SS procs I know I'll get. CA might have an effective "target cap" of 4-5 targets for purely SS spam. Overall, I just play the way I normally play. I won't be "praying" for SS procs as much, but I'd rather waste 2 procs than only get 1, at least I know I'll probably have another proc next tick.

[huth]

I completely understood what you said. Right now it's not an issue. My point was only that I don't think that Blizzard wanted us to be spamming our SS by the end of the expansion. This was not part of their initial design for us, and I assuming that the changes for us that GC was speaking about with have an effect on SS.

There is nothing wrong with SS wastage right now. I completely understand, but my point that you are not getting is that it should have never gotten to the point where we are wasting SS procs as much as we are because it's a stupid design in any system to have excess of anything that is not needed.

I just don't think applying dots, and spamming SS is that enjoyable of a class.

I don't think they ever said that they didn't want that, so you can't know if its part of the design. Don't assume.

My point that you now failed twice to understand is that it doesn't matter that we're wasting this many procs. The game is balanced around us wasting that much.

Systems intentionally designed with waste in mind are far more common than you're aware of. Just look at light bulbs.

[Fizzlekin]

I don't think they ever said that they didn't want that, so you can't know if its part of the design. Don't assume.

My point that you now failed twice to understand is that it doesn't matter that we're wasting this many procs. The game is balanced around us wasting that much.

Systems intentionally designed with waste in mind are far more common than you're aware of. Just look at light bulbs.

So you are also assuming that they intended for our SS to proc as much as it does? Right back at you.

That makes no sense whatsoever. The game is balanced around us wasting procs because it is impossible for us to use them all because they proc to close to one another. They do nothing for us if they are wasted. It would make more sense if they came up with a system that removed them from being wasted while still allowing us to use SS as much as they proc, such as if we have a Shooting Star proc and we gain another our starsurge does double the damage or has gets put into a queue that is given to us after we use the first one, so that we don't have 50 SS procs being wasted needlessly. But okay lets stick with your idea that the game is balanced around something that doesn't have an effect on game balance.

Just because it works doesn't mean it's that great of an idea. Kinda why numerous designs to get more efficient energy out of light bulbs have become more common. That was an awful comparison of the point you wanted to make. The first computers took up an entire room? That sounds like a lot of waste. Has nothing to do with anything, just wanted to make something and were restricted by the technology and knowledge they had at the time of designing.

[lappee]

I think its hilarious that lappee is making an attempt to correlate reacting to SS procs with skill. Idk maybe some people just have awful reaction times, but good MS, a working keyboard, and the default shooting stars aura is all you need to be skilled now I guess?

The skill comes in when you need to decide whether its a dps increase to cancel the current cast in order to cast SS proc or not. And yes, reacting is part of what we define as "skill"

The biggest mistake I see players make, even "good players" still is double dotting adds instead of applying eclipsed dots first + the SS proc weaving next followed by uneclipsed dot and poor DoT management in general. Of course this can vary a little with encounters due to mob priority. Skill comes in from adapting your rotation to new encounters before other players while executing the encounter properly as well, not reacting to an aura by pressing a button.

And if you cant manage your rotation in the first place, then its already GG. There are good moonkins (rotation) and theres good raiders (adaptability) but only few that have both - these are the moonkins in top guilds.

It shouldn't have been the case in the first place that something would be designed to have proc wastage is my point.

Proc wastage came along CA, its been there ever since mop and only now you make a huge deal out of it. Its too late to change such core mechanic, we'll see in next expansion

I'm sorry, I didn't realize full capability meant how fast I can click a key to spam SS...There is no skill in that. Skill isn't how much damage you can do on a fight because we all know certain guilds have better strategies than others. Skill relies on the players ability to adapt to the situation, and still be able to perform.

Its never going to be all about spamming SS, majority of it could be in fights like Alysrazor, but its never going to be the whole deal and thats where skill steps in.

[huth]

So you are also assuming that they intended for our SS to proc as much as it does? Right back at you.

No. I'm not assuming i have any idea of what their design plan is unless they tell us.

Also, it's impossible to use SS procs in a way that guarantees 0% waste without hurting your DPS. It was programmed from the start with the assumption that some procs will be wasted.

[daerellin]

@daerellin
For players with the same gear there's very little difference between someone that executed perfectly and someone that made 10+ mistakes, just in their rotation alone during an encounter. Unless they forget a major ability like starfall or don't use 3 minute cds the difference is usually small. Also RPPM rng can make the less skilled player do more damage in a lot of situations.

I guess this is one of those "your mileage may vary" situations, but my experience has not been the same. I'm definitely not a top tier raider or anything, but I'm decent, and I've had an opportunity to play with other Boomkin within 3 items levels and have seen a wide range of numbers result. It's easy for someone who may be clearing most heroics to make a statement like "This is mindless to me", but not all of us are so blessed as you as to find no challenge in our operation.

[dark666105]

Looks like there is still tons of spirit and hit on gear we can use in SoO with very few non spirit/hit options. Hopefully when they release the stats for our tier we won't have any on it. I doubt it but we can always hope. Just about all the non spirit/hit options have mastery on them as well.

[Slippykins]

Looks like there is still tons of spirit and hit on gear we can use in SoO with very few non spirit/hit options. Hopefully when they release the stats for our tier we won't have any on it. I doubt it but we can always hope. Just about all the non spirit/hit options have mastery on them as well.

I'm not too worried about stats on gear yet - obviously they've just started the first PTR wave of gear, so I'm assuming a lot of the stats are placeholders. You can see some of the weapons get the name "Versatile" to denote they have no spirit/hit, so they're bookmarking the items without those stats. Too early to tell how much of the spirit on some of those pieces will be revoked, but I can assure you it wont stay as is.

[dark666105]

has there been a time when the stats for non tier items have been released and there have been significant changes from those stats (not counting when they release items and they have the same stats as the previous tier, those are obviously placeholders)?

Not saying there hasn't just saying if there has I don't remember.