1. #301
    Deleted
    Someone posted that you can dodge/parry debuffs from bosses. Basically if a hit that has a debuff attached is fully avoided not only the hit will miss but the debuff will not be applied aswell. Another cherry on the avoidance cake.

    Personally I will go all out on parry, ignoring mastery completly. This brings avoidance, high crit, more HS procs, longer barrier uptimes and a better chance to avoid debuffs. You still want to use shield block though. With all that crit you don't want to miss out on 50% SS damage. At least in single target scenario. On multitarget your avoidance will make Revenge spamable so I would use barrier then.

    Mastery has nothing on the table that puts it on par.

    Btw has someone a damage comparsion of SS/Revenge?

    Revenge hits up to 3 targets. But afaik the split damage is reduced. Has anyone got current numbers? Afaik the main target will get 100%, the second 50% and the third only 25% damage. But not sure. Maybe the damage is split evenly on all 3 targets like Thunder Clap.

    Edit. I found it. Source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6794029542
    Revenge now deals 50% damage to a secondary target, and 25% damage to a third target.
    Is this nerf still in place?

    So a Revenge is either 100%, 150% or 175% of its damage. Depending on targets hit.

    I checked some random WoL on Jin'rokh: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/o.../1/?s=57&e=259

    Code:
    Spell             1target   2targets    3targets    5targets
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    White hit         35923     35923       35923       35923
    Revenge           105316    157974      184303      184303
    Shield Slam       232446    232446      232446      232446
    Devastate         78485     78485       78485       78485
    Heroic Strike     59238     59238       59238       59238
    Thunder Clap      42734     85468       128202      213670
    Last edited by mmoc48efa32b91; 2013-08-15 at 03:50 PM.

  2. #302
    I will definitely going as I did on PTR which made me feel overflow with rage and dealing high damage (which in my case, 10 man, is require). Which is:

    Crit>Parry>Dodge with gems exp/crit, hit/crit, crit

    Same as Zorker I will completely avoid at start mastery, although I would like to test 2set + all these Master/Crit heavy non set items (dps plates) ignoring parry/dodge there (might even easily cap with them) but looking at what I could do without much effort by just going Crit>Parry>Dodge I might just stick with it. You might think, what? But in such setup I was doing great in each department DPS/DMG Taken and with new meta gem change it will be worth it more. If that won't be enough to survive most of the fights I would swap purely to avoidance as can't remember a fight that was less then 60% magic damage anyway.

  3. #303
    Deleted
    Why would you swim in rage when going for crit > avoidance? Did I miss something?
    Oh...maybe it is the Enrage proc from SS/Dev crits.

    Anyway. SS being so superior in damage we cannot afford to miss out on the HR glyph or not using Shield Block if we go for damage optimization. SS is such a huge chunk of our damage. And according to patchnotes that will not change.

    Well, unless the Vengeance changes favor one ability more than another.
    Last edited by mmoc48efa32b91; 2013-08-15 at 04:18 PM.

  4. #304
    Capacitive Primal Diamond, and Legendary melee cloaks (Fen-Yu, Fury of Xuen, and Gong-Lu, Strength of Xuen) now have a 40% reduced chance to activate its effects for characters that are in a tanking specialization.
    My prayers have been answered.

  5. #305
    So now the question is for 25 heroic progression how much base stamina will we need? With avoidable boss mechanics the threshold should be lower than it was this tier, however there are some fights (Iron Juggernaut Heroic) where stamina will be more important for bomb and conal soaking. Not sure whether it will be worth doing a hybridized gem setup using Parry/Stam, Dodge/Stam gems with Stam JC gems or if it will be more feasible to use pure avoidance and pure Parry JC gems.

    Gliff have you tested if the avoidance from tank shoulder/leg compared to the DPS one in terms of crit gained? At work and can't pop on PTR to test or do any math. Seems as stated before that River's Song will also offer more than DS currently. I am interested to see how the DR of avoidance will change now that we are actively gearing towards it.

    Really we need to see some Heroic 25 fights and see what the basic stam threshold will be. Hopefully they start testing 25 mans for more than just 30 minutes..... It may turn out that we can swap to Stam trinkets for unavoidable damage, and otherwise stick with avoidance.

    I know 10 man tanks will basically ignore stam as they typically do and instead opt for pure avoidance instead of pure mastery, but 25 H tanks are going to have an interesting gearing choice now. Never been a fan of avoidance, but this makes it more appealing. The amount of hit/exp on gear seems to make me think that we won't need to gem for it either, although we'll see, my BiS list is not yet complete.

    And looks like we'll be taking the tank Meta again, although the tank cloak enchant unless there is a 1 shot mechanic somewhere I'm not seeing is still looking a bit unappealing, especially with the stresses of trying to keep up with other tank DPS.
    Last edited by arij177; 2013-08-15 at 06:20 PM.

  6. #306
    Considering most tank damaging abilities actually ARE avoidable I am assuming the stam needed is probably much less then Throne. We probably already had more stam then needed last patch anyways.


    And looks like we'll be taking the tank Meta again, although the tank cloak enchant unless there is a 1 shot mechanic somewhere I'm not seeing is still looking a bit unappealing, especially with the stresses of trying to keep up with other tank DPS.
    The tanking cloak is literally the best possible thing we can ask for other then a usable flat damage reduction. Ask anyone who played a paladin back in the day. You guys will love the tanking cloak.

    I'm sure someone can run sims for you to test the difference on DPS and tanking shoulder/leg enchants. Eddy simmed the weapon enchant and the results are somewhere on this thread.
    Last edited by Gliff; 2013-08-15 at 07:18 PM.

  7. #307
    Deleted
    Thats right you get my like bro

  8. #308
    Just seems like a wasteful enchant unless something is hitting hard enough to warrant us literally dying every 2 minutes. But taking tank damage into consideration for the past 2 tiers there has been nothing that has come close to killing me like that unless I made a mistake. So from a pure output standpoint more damage has been better. My fear is that I will have it and it will only proc when I mess up, however this is wasteful once you have mastered an encounter and I'd really prefer getting more mileage than just ease of learning. Really depends on what the heroic bosses will throw at us...but we'll see. I'll likely wear it because obviously the faster a fight is learned without a tank death the faster the fight dies however I'd love something that was more similar to the uptimes on the other cloaks.

    Don't get my point of view wrong. I LIKE and think this enchant is great, however I would have preferred an enchant with a higher uptime. The power of this enchant can't be ignored but we tank in an Active Mitigation centric world now, and adding a proc that only seems to proc when I fail or healers fail (not taking into account soaking something like Static Shock solo) falls short on my expectations when compared to some of the other procs.

    With the amount of damage we can do to adds on fights like Garrosh the cleave cloak may be quite beneficial in significantly reducing the time they are alive. That said that was before the Vengeance multi-mob changes. May swap it around depending on the fight because of this.
    Last edited by arij177; 2013-08-15 at 07:53 PM.

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    Our DPS not that far behind. Not anywhere near as behind as it was last patch. With this we are even closer and they fixed my biggest gripe with warriors, no AOE damage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaritte View Post
    65% buff to something that does ~8% of our damage is a 5% overall dps buff. I wouldn't scoff at that. And it also will go well with the 50% thunderclap buff for improved AoE threat.

    IMO, what Blizz should do is give Thunderclap three charges each on an eight second cooldown. Easy AoE ramp-up when needed without being spammable OP, but some skill and planning involved on occasions where you need to save charges (e.g. adds on Horridon).

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Ysearia View Post
    I will definitely going as I did on PTR which made me feel overflow with rage and dealing high damage (which in my case, 10 man, is require). Which is:

    Crit>Parry>Dodge with gems exp/crit, hit/crit, crit

    Same as Zorker I will completely avoid at start mastery, although I would like to test 2set + all these Master/Crit heavy non set items (dps plates) ignoring parry/dodge there (might even easily cap with them) but looking at what I could do without much effort by just going Crit>Parry>Dodge I might just stick with it. You might think, what? But in such setup I was doing great in each department DPS/DMG Taken and with new meta gem change it will be worth it more. If that won't be enough to survive most of the fights I would swap purely to avoidance as can't remember a fight that was less then 60% magic damage anyway.
    What sort of Crit pieces would you be looking at in this build?

    I tested out a set using the limited pieces I have access to, and found the crit heavy build quite fun.

    I focused on Crit/Hit and Crit/Expertise pieces (1-2 Crit/Mastery due to having nothing better) and the rest of my gear all Parry/Dodge, same gems as you said.

  11. #311
    Hi guys!

    Im RL in a casual 10 man. We mainly do NM, but at the end of the tier we end up doing some heroics, wich we also enjoy.

    Thing is an old friend is back from a long period without playing, and he's decided to play his prot warrior. I myself am a prot pala, and am used of doing a huge amount of dps and healing, while also having an excellent mitigation of damage.

    How's the state of a prot warrior in this behalf?

    Also, skimmed through this thread and reached the conclussion that 5.4 is gonna be a nice patch for prot warr and that gearing strat would be something like:

    hit (7.5) > exp (15) > crit > parry > dodge >>> mastery > haste

    Got it right?

    Will try to gather some logs once he's set so you can give us some headlines.

    Would really appreciate some feedback.

    Tx a lot!

  12. #312
    I'd say Hit=exp caps>parry>dodge>crit

    Thats what I will be doing for progression atleast.

  13. #313
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    I'd say Hit=exp caps>parry>dodge>crit

    Thats what I will be doing for progression atleast.
    Are we going for exp hard cap or will we have sufficient rage gen with the 5.4 changes if we stick to soft cap?

  14. #314
    Deleted
    I would pick the same as Gliff.

    Thus: HIT>EXP>PARRY>DODGE

    Going for crit gives you 100% crit rating.
    Going for avoidance give you 100% avoidance rating and 75% crit rating (while Riposte is active).

    So by going on avoidance you loose 25% of your crit rating. So basically you will proc Enrage 25% less, some goes for Ultimatum. But you gain a huge chunk of avoidance.

    Btw you can have tons of crit. If you mess your SS cooldowns your dps will be low on single target. Make sure to not fuck up your ss cd.

    Not going for exp/hit hard caps is not a question. We got tons of rating and missing a SS is a huge loss.

    Going for crit instead of avoidance is quite good in offtanking scenarios though, where Riposte may drop. Well this lasts as long as you can keep your Vengeance stack. Without Vengeance the crit may be high but the damage is meh.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Sidenote.

    Has anyone done analyzation of how beneful it is to drop Revenge off the single target rotation?

    What if we only use SS+Dev on single target?

    Revenge has a 50% damage bonus after a parry. But without that it is pretty weak on single target. Sword and Board proc chance is 30%.

    Another benefactor by dropping Revenge is that you optimize your Enrage procs even more and you will get more free heroics since you get more SS in that may crit and proc Ultimatum.

    Basically we would need an aura tracker for the "Hold the line buff". If that is not active I would not use Revenge on single target.
    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=84619

    But it really depends on the numbers.
    - Revenge and SS scale with AP (Vengeance).
    - Devastate scales with weapon damage.

    I'm probably going to do this in 5.4. The gap in damage from Devastate to Revenge is not that big (current numbers). The gap from Revenge to SS is huge. Plus on every SS you get a chance on a free Heroic on top.

    Not sure what to do with a Revenge on Hold the Line proc though.

    -------------------------------------------

    I checked 10man normal vs 25man hc. I wanted to compare the percentages (how the Vengeance difference takes effect)

    10man nm http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/o.../1/?s=57&e=259
    25man hc http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/d...?s=1005&e=1194



    Revenge is my base value for this one. Devastate does 75% of the Revenge damage in 10man and only 65% in 25man hc.
    Grain of salt is that it is unknown how Hold the Line affected the result.
    Last edited by mmoc48efa32b91; 2013-08-16 at 12:05 PM.

  15. #315
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by zorker View Post
    I would pick the same as Gliff.

    Thus: HIT>EXP>PARRY>DODGE.
    That'll be x3 atleast then since i'll go the same route.

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odeanathus View Post
    That'll be x3 atleast then since i'll go the same route.
    Yea have to agree after allo tof reading and looking at gear etc I started to buy / farm up all the gems chants etc that I will need come 5.4! Don't forget live atm parry gems are CHEAP as hell... found many under 10 gold on my server. Buy them up now while people don't realize they will be wanted come 5.4!

    Basic setup I will go for is

    Red slot = parry
    Yellow = parry + dodge
    Blue = Parry stam or parry hit

    Most of those gems are still pretty damn cheap atm! Good AH hunting!

    Going to change my enchant on wepp as well... seems silly going to such a less expensive chant but hey saving gold is never a bad thing :P
    Last edited by Odina; 2013-08-16 at 01:48 PM.

  17. #317
    Hey guys,

    So I am coming back to raiding in 5.4 on my protection warrior, I have played throughout this xpac but have not raided due to my work schedule. I am an officer and have been a main tank in my guild throughout all of last xpac. Without playing frequently and testing gear in 25m Heroic raids I just cannot seem to keep up with all the warrior changes that are happening going from 5.3>5.4. For reference we run 25m will never go to 10m and do pretty good heroic progression, here is my armory us.battle.net/wow/en/character/korgath/Fancyrage/‎. Now for a few questions:

    -I have tried to keep up with all of the changes and have read through most of this forum, what I don't really have a good understanding of is that with the new 2-piece bonus it wouldn't be more beneficial to go heavy into mastery than into parry/dodge?
    -I don't really like having to compete with plate dps on gear because we have quite a few plate dps in our raid makeup, what are your thoughts on this?
    -For those of you who have been pondering around on the PTR, do you feel the tank meta and cloak will be the best choices?
    -What BiS gear going into 5.4 will you guys be going for? Obviously upgrading shortly after the 5.4 gear starts dropping

    Hit=exp caps>parry>dodge>crit seems like the consensus with parry,dodge,and hybrid stam gems if needed.

    I feel like such a nub asking these questions when I was always on top of it in previous tiers. I guess that's what taking a break from raid progression for a year will do to you. I appreciate any responses that can be given to kind of point me in the right direction, and I also thank you for your time reading my blabbering.
    Last edited by Wolfeman; 2013-08-16 at 02:05 PM.

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfeman View Post
    Hey guys,

    So I am coming back to raiding in 5.4 on my protection warrior, I have played throughout this xpac but have not raided due to my work schedule. I am an officer and have been a main tank in my guild throughout all of last xpac. Without playing frequently and testing gear in 25m Heroic raids I just cannot seem to keep up with all the warrior changes that are happening going from 5.3>5.4. For reference we run 25m will never go to 10m and do pretty good heroic progression, here is my armory us.battle.net/wow/en/character/korgath/Fancyrage/‎. Now for a few questions:

    -I have tried to keep up with all of the changes and have read through most of this forum, what I don't really have a good understanding of is that with the new 2-piece bonus it wouldn't be more beneficial to go heavy into mastery than into parry/dodge?
    -I don't really like having to compete with plate dps on gear because we have quite a few plate dps in our raid makeup, what are your thoughts on this?
    -For those of you who have been pondering around on the PTR, do you feel the tank meta and cloak will be the best choices?
    -What BiS gear going into 5.4 will you guys be going for? Obviously upgrading shortly after the 5.4 gear starts dropping

    Hit=exp caps>parry>dodge>crit seems like the consensus with parry,dodge,and hybrid stam gems if needed.

    I feel like such a nub asking these questions when I was always on top of it in previous tiers. I guess that's what taking a break from raid progression for a year will do to you. I appreciate any responses that can be given to kind of point me in the right direction, and I also thank you for your time reading my blabbering.
    That armory if anyone doesn't want to copy+paste

    1. Mastery is still Warrior's best mitigation secondary but with Riposte Dodge and Parry both increase a Prot Warrior's DPS simply through more Crits and better Enrage uptime.

    2. I wouldn't worry about this as a Prot Warrior as pure Parry+Dodge gear will still be somewhat useful over anything with Crit and/or Haste on it due to Riposte. Ideally though you want gear with any stat but Crit (until your DPS have that piece) and Haste (let the Prot Paladins have that) but try to avoid pure avoidance gear (Parry+Dodge) if you're able.

    3. The Tank Meta was buffed to be relatively more powerful than it is live and compared to the DPS Meta due to the proc now working against all types of damage rather than just physical as well as the DPS meta having a 40% reduced chance to proc while in a tanking specialization. The DPS Cloak also has a 40% reduced proc chance but it's hard to say if that will deter people from using it due to how the Tank Cloak works; if you're able to survive an encounter without the Tank Cloak then it's a DPS loss to use the Tank Cloak.

    4. Can't comment on this as I haven't really looked at the new gear beyond weapon models.

    5. 7.5% Hit = 15% Expertise > Mastery > Dodge (unless you have every slot with Dodge) > Parry has been the reference I use. Whether or not this is still valid I can't say as I really don't want to tank on my warrior.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    That armory if anyone doesn't want to copy+paste[/url]

    1. Mastery is still Warrior's best mitigation secondary but with Riposte Dodge and Parry both increase a Prot Warrior's DPS simply through more Crits and better Enrage uptime.

    2. I wouldn't worry about this as a Prot Warrior as pure Parry+Dodge gear will still be somewhat useful over anything with Crit and/or Haste on it due to Riposte. Ideally though you want gear with any stat but Crit (until your DPS have that piece) and Haste (let the Prot Paladins have that) but try to avoid pure avoidance gear (Parry+Dodge) if you're able.

    3. The Tank Meta was buffed to be relatively more powerful than it is live and compared to the DPS Meta due to the proc now working against all types of damage rather than just physical as well as the DPS meta having a 40% reduced chance to proc while in a tanking specialization. The DPS Cloak also has a 40% reduced proc chance but it's hard to say if that will deter people from using it due to how the Tank Cloak works; if you're able to survive an encounter without the Tank Cloak then it's a DPS loss to use the Tank Cloak.

    4. Can't comment on this as I haven't really looked at the new gear beyond weapon models.

    5. 7.5% Hit = 15% Expertise > Mastery > Dodge (unless you have every slot with Dodge) > Parry has been the reference I use. Whether or not this is still valid I can't say as I really don't want to tank on my warrior.
    Thanks for posting the link to my armory, until I make a few posts on here I cant put links!

    1.) I will have to look into this a little more, as of right now I am just so used to going after all pieces with mastery and (hit/exp/dodge/parry) and veering away from pure dodge/parry gear.

    2.) Right that seems like it will work out

    3.) Being a 25m raiding guild tank damage has never really been a problem for us so I normally lean towards anything that will help me stay alive.

    4.) Yea I will have to look into this a lot more this week.

    5.) From the last few posts I have seen on here it seems that people are saying 7.5%hit>15%exp>parry>dodge>crit, maybe I am reading this wrong. Also I am confused on why you state that dodge is better than parry, I have never seen that to be the case but I could be missing something ?

  20. #320
    Deleted
    regarding 5.)
    You are not reading that right. Dodge is never better than parry since you need to parry to gain the Hold the Line proc from the glyph.

    Regarding 4.)
    BIS. Just use wowhead. The filter options are awesome. http://goo.gl/6xlrV6
    Once the new items are in the list will update automatically with the best items available.
    Last edited by mmoc48efa32b91; 2013-08-16 at 02:48 PM.

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