[5.4] Protection Warrior

[Deleted]

But talking of theck I would use his "sacredduty.net/2013/08/08/updated-diminishing-returns-coefficients-all-tanks/" to do that instead, the post-DR dodge is not something easily visible ingame...

You can get your post-dr dodge easily from your char screen.

[Gliff]

Ditto, yellows dodge, reds parry and parry Stam for everything else (mostly) and dodge stam

I was thinking more Stam because of most other abilities that occur naturally during the fight that could lead to an insta gib gliff

(Remember I am 25 man)

We are gonna be bringing 3 tanks for that fight and spread the sunder out on all 3 of us and have a tank basically tanking the spinning dude off in the corner by himself. With 3 tanks and avoidance gear I was only getting to 2 stacks before we could have switched. The only other mechanic that is really that dangerous for a tank is when a roar gets lined up with an execute.

I';m sure they will tune him to hit harder but it was not that bad.

Honestly the scariest thing I have tanked so far is the mini-boss at the top of the second tower on the Protodrake boss lol. That chick hits like a truck.

[Deleted]

I guess this comes back to a question for me. If we are all gemming and gearing towards dodge in the avoidance build, wont we be getting a lot of DR from all the dodge we are stacking?

Sure. And when you gem for parry, you are getting more into the parry DR. That's the nature of DR :-)

[Peukst]

Honestly the scariest thing I have tanked so far is the mini-boss at the top of the second tower on the Protodrake boss lol. That chick hits like a truck.

I damn near shit my pants when i got to the top of that tower !

[Deleted]

You can get your post-dr dodge easily from your char screen.

Yeah, derped that a bit. I remembered now that it gave both before and after, and you only had to put a constant -% to it.

Still prefer a spreadsheet to do it, truth be told.

[Deleted]

I don’t know exactly what you mean. As you can see from the posted graph, your parry% should be around 1,5-2x higher than your dodge% from your char screen for a good ratio as a warrior (if your goal is max avoidance).

If you want to know it exactly, just use the known ingame script:

/run d=GetDodgeChance() p=237.1861*d/90.6425-((237.1861/90.6425)*5.01-3.22) DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Ideal parry for current dodge: "..string.format("%.2f",p))

[Gliff]

I damn near shit my pants when i got to the top of that tower !

We were pulling the ground mobs up top to cleave the archers and I literally got 2 shot because I got ahead of my healer and didnt have a CD popped lol. It was like "WOOAHHHHHH".

[Deleted]

I don’t know exactly what you mean. As you can see from the posted graph, your parry% should be around 1,5-2x higher than your dodge% from your char screen for a good ratio as a warrior (if your goal is max avoidance).

If you want to know it exactly, just use the known ingame script:

What I mean is that I prefer to do it with a spreadsheet instead of a ingame script or a graph with an axis X being dodge. It's just easier for me to reach the optimum in one go with it. Others may find easier to do it with the graph, or check if they are ok with the ingame script after finshing a first approach.

[idefiler6]

Did I miss a link to said spreadsheet? Is there a premade one available?

[Frozendekay]

With 3 tanks and avoidance gear I was only getting to 2 stacks before we could have switched.

When we tested this on Flex yesterday we could not avoid Sundering Blow. Looking at logs I have a 32% missrate with melee swings and 0% for Sunder. Could be a bug with flex, but I'm betting they realized avoidance played too large a role in his rage gain and simply decided to have it always hit.

[Aberrict]

After reading through this avoidance seems to be the way to go for 10man tanking for the added DPS. My only question is how much spikier is the damage with a pure avoidance build?

[Deleted]

What I mean is that I prefer to do it with a spreadsheet instead of a ingame script or a graph with an axis X being dodge. It's just easier for me to reach the optimum in one go with it. Others may find easier to do it with the graph, or check if they are ok with the ingame script after finshing a first approach.

Here is a little a spreadsheet for parry-dodge-ratio optimizations for warriors. Is my first time I use Google Docs. Maybe it helps.

docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Al_-AQ-PDVSQdFMtRGtuYko2YXRZbWxIYmljYk52akE#gid=0


PS
Still cannot add any links/images ...

[Gliff]

Is that your creation? Just to know who to give credit to.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...jYk52akE#gid=0

[Deleted]

So if that spread sheet is correct we'll want A LOT less parry rating than Dodge rating.... :-\ which is kinda.... Confusing me as I figured i'd get parry around 1000 ratings higher than Dodge and be cool.

[Deleted]

Is that your creation? Just to know who to give credit to.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...jYk52akE#gid=0

Yes, this is my creation. It's based on Thecks theory works.

- - - Updated - - -

So if that spread sheet is correct we'll want A LOT less parry rating than Dodge rating.... :-\ which is kinda.... Confusing me as I figured i'd get parry around 1000 ratings higher than Dodge and be cool.

This is because of the strenght. Strenght gives a lot of parry.

[Deleted]

This is because of the strenght. Strenght gives a lot of parry.

I always operated under the impression DR was based on rating, and not on the percentage, but I'm not a very strong theorycrafter so that might be why i've been living with this wrong assumption.

[Pippo89]

Anyone tested some kind of strength/avoidance gemming?
Red: str
yellow: dodge + strength
blue: parry + strength
Increases avoidance and damage output, both of them being important.

Would be nice to know if the total strength would affect your tank dps (+ parry) in a noticeable way - or not.

Cheerio from Switzerland

[Deleted]

So if that spread sheet is correct we'll want A LOT less parry rating than Dodge rating.... :-\ which is kinda.... Confusing me as I figured i'd get parry around 1000 ratings higher than Dodge and be cool.

You're talking sub 1% wins in avoidance, if you go by the spreadsheet with current ratings (prioritising mastery):
I'm sitting on 4.9k dodge and 5.7k parry (ilvl 542), which translates (post dr, but with strength/base agility) to 10.45% dodge and 26.59% parry. This comes from reforging parry>dodge without thinking about dr.
Going by spreadsheet, I would want 7.4k dodge and 3.2k parry to minimize dr - sounds like a huge difference, but that translates to 12.99% dodge and 24.14% parry.
So I go from 10.45%+26.59%=37.04% to 12.99%+24.14%=37.13% avoidance, a total win of 0.07% avoidance.
That might be a totally different story once we go full out parry/dodge (not going for mastery), and strength from gear gets even more because of ilvls, but I'm to lazy to check that now.

[Deleted]

Yes, that's true.

As long as you not push your avoidance, the differences are small.
In that case, you maybe want to hold on your parry because of the HtL-Glyph.

Ratio becomes more interesting in high avoidance gear.
Then the DR begins to work stronger.

[Deleted]

Anyone tested some kind of strength/avoidance gemming?
Red: str
yellow: dodge + strength
blue: parry + strength
Increases avoidance and damage output, both of them being important.

Would be nice to know if the total strength would affect your tank dps (+ parry) in a noticeable way - or not.

Cheerio from Switzerland

While strength affects our dps it's only a small increase in total damage dealt. Parry from strength won't benefit riposte and additional attackpower from strength is rather weak compared to more avoidance plus crit chance from pure avoidance gemming with 5.4. Vengeance is just to good in an actual tanking scenario and outdo the gains from a strength heavy build rather easily. The more additional attackpower from vengeance the less interesting is a static increase from strength and the more interesting % damage increase via crit gets.

On the diminishing return thingy:
as soon as you start picking up avoidance pieces you'll end up hitting the DR wall of dodge naturally. While both dodge and parry grant a decent amount of avoidance it's just not interesting past being on our gear as secondary stat (ie: via excessive gemming), if you have 30k avoidance rating you'd still want 20k parry to 10k dodge just because dodge starts to diminish really fast at that point already. From a damage dealt PoV it only matters ever so slightly because both grant the same amount of rating, only difference is that parry also helps with our regular damage dealt via hold the line glyph.

After reading through this avoidance seems to be the way to go for 10man tanking for the added DPS. My only question is how much spikier is the damage with a pure avoidance build?

Short answer: yes. Long answer: Ye-no-sorta. We'd still be hitting sblock on high physical damage fights, smoothing out the possible damage intake as much as possible. But we wouldn't rely only on critical blocks alone to deal with that, being out of options past 24 seconds due to the charge system on shield block. And we'd have a way easier time on fights without mainly physical damage which is basically every fight on 10M, shifting from sblock to sbar without feeling like we'd waste 20k secondary stats every time we push the "wrong" AM button. But one thing we shouldn't forget when we compare mastery to avoidance: we'd have 30%+ block chance without popping sblock (compared to ~ 20% without any mastery at all) and 100% crit block all the time, even while spamming only SBar. So eyeing with it isn't such a bad thing for the damage reduction, but as Espada already pointed out: we're eyeing with avoidance for Riposte and the huge damage buff - we never had to worry about damage intake and SoO is no place for that either.

Execute is % based. WHy would you want high stam? Sunder is avoidable on that. You will 100% want full avoidance.

My guess: double stam trinkets are more or less set for 25M, so this leaves you with roughly 20 gems slots worth either <5k stamina or <7k avoidance. Thanks to the big loot table, high chance on TF pieces and so on it should be a good way to gem for stamina until you get into a stable comfort zone without them (1M buffed?) and swap thereafter. I doubt that your raid will fail because you're lacking 6% avoidance and 8% crit.