[5.4] Protection Warrior

[Gliff]

Probably just wanted all H TF gear on, haha well done.

1 trinket is the only thing I ever change from boss to boss. I obviously use the MSV stam trinket usually.

[Zaiosrs]

I'm also concerned that we;ve seen no real DPS balance changes that are tailored to Prot. The DW buff effects all warriors, the TC buff affects Arms as well, and riposte affect DKs, with only a week left of PTR time I feel really neglected as a spec.

They are still raid testing and tweaking numbers at the same time, I am not expecting final DPS tweaks until just before 5.4 hits TBH.

Once the patch goes live, then you can feel a little bit neglected in regards to prot warrior dmg buffs, but give blizz some time, a week is still a long time in the game dev world to get things done (or very little time at all if you behind in your work load)

[Deleted]

They are still raid testing and tweaking numbers at the same time, I am not expecting final DPS tweaks until just before 5.4 hits TBH.

Once the patch goes live, then you can feel a little bit neglected in regards to prot warrior dmg buffs, but give blizz some time, a week is still a long time in the game dev world to get things done (or very little time at all if you behind in your work load)

I'm also concerend they're counting on the GCD Haste Cap to throttle Pally DPS, the Keg Smash nerf to do the same for Brewmasters, hoping Riposte manages to keep warriors, and DKs from being laughed at.

[Deleted]

By default, I'd put stamina "high", such that stamina gems are recommended, but still pick up most socket bonuses with hybrid gems.

Whatever you do ... please don't do that!

For defensive setup gemming will be mastery in yellow, mastery + exp in red and mastery + hit in blue sockets.
For balaced i think it's parry for red, parry + hit for blue and parry + dodge or dodge for yellow.

I'm quite sure we will be using at least one stamina trinket (the cd-reduce one) but mostly for reducing the cds. Also switching in another stamina trinket like the +crit usage or the aoe-reduce gives us as much stamina as 10 (lfr) to 15 (h-wf) pure stamina gems! thats half to 3/4 of all sockets available on our gear just with one trinket! if you compare that for example to 1500 - 2300 dodge gain from the other trinket blocking only 5 - 7 sockets ... gemming for stamina seams to be the least efficient way to get some more of it.

[Deleted]

gemming for stamina seams to be the least efficient way to get some more of it.

You're quite correct; You get 1.5x as much passive stamina from trinket slots as you do Secondary Stats. You only get 0.75x as much stamina from gems as you would Secondary Stats, So, weird secondary affects from Trinkets being equal, if you want more stam you get the most from swapping in stam trinkets, then swapping enchants, and then lastly from swapping over to stam gems.

[Deleted]

On just about every fight, I could keep nearly 100% uptime on shield block and having enough rage to shield barrier every other melee swing

What are you talking about? You can only do that for 24seconds. After that it's 66% max. Maybe I read it wrong.

[sirmo7]

What are you talking about? You can only do that for 24seconds. After that it's 66% max. Maybe I read it wrong.

he means Sblock always on CD >> excess rage

[Deleted]

I'm also concerned that we;ve seen no real DPS balance changes that are tailored to Prot. The DW buff effects all warriors, the TC buff affects Arms as well, and riposte affect DKs, with only a week left of PTR time I feel really neglected as a spec.

I already pointed that out in the fury threads: we don't need any more buffs, it almost looks like Blizzard is somewhat balancing all other speccs around us. RPPM changes? We get away with zero wounds while everyone else was stacking haste. Scaling? Sadly our rage generation won't explode like in previous expansions in the last tier but the rest looks fairly decent to me.

I'm also concerend they're counting on the GCD Haste Cap to throttle Pally DPS, the Keg Smash nerf to do the same for Brewmasters, hoping Riposte manages to keep warriors, and DKs from being laughed at.

DKs going all out on crit and haste are already on par with paladins in 10M, they scale incredible well with both stats and they'll give any paladin a run for their money as soon as they can get their hands on a heroic warforged weapon. And now they can at least gear more defensively while still dealing good dps. They've other problems to deal with, some are fixed with 5.4 and some can't be fixed until the next expansion.
Monks & paladins both get hurt by the already mentioned RPPM changes (don't forget that they always used two dps trinkets while we regulary sticked with defensive ones, only increasing the gap between us), keg smash on top of that is just a bonus. The crazier 10M paladins will go for crit after capping haste so taming their offensive potential is almost impossible, the rest will enjoy their defensive potential with stacking stamina and mastery past haste.
Warriors? If we don't go for Riposte we won't come anywhere close, that's true. But if we go for it (and that's clearly not a bad thing in general as pointed out several times over this thread) we'll be in a region that is considered as acceptable difference.
Ps: let's not forget about druids, while they already reached 100% crit chance during trinkets they still suffer the most from unavoidable defuffs and Blizzard needs to tune physical boss abilities around them and DKs rather than blocktanks.

I'm quite sure we will be using at least one stamina trinket (the cd-reduce one) but mostly for reducing the cds. Also switching in another stamina trinket like the +crit usage or the aoe-reduce gives us as much stamina as 10 (lfr) to 15 (h-wf) pure stamina gems! thats half to 3/4 of all sockets available on our gear just with one trinket! if you compare that for example to 1500 - 2300 dodge gain from the other trinket blocking only 5 - 7 sockets ... gemming for stamina seams to be the least efficient way to get some more of it.

We'll have about 20 gem slots (excluding blacksmithing, and the additional weapon slot won't be avaible any longer), 240*20=4800. A raidfinder SoO stamina trinket only grants 2328 stamina which is half of that. So what's with a) 25m tanks who basically always preferred stamina b) entry gear level raiders during their first time approach of anything past lfr? And it's not like more healthpoints are bad per se, it's only less optimal than having additional secondary stats.

I regulary always gemmed for stamina during progression until my healthpool felt high enough to survive certain bursts, it helped me while just learning the fight and not paying all attention to rage generation & AM.

[Deleted]

We'll have about 20 gem slots (excluding blacksmithing, and the additional weapon slot won't be avaible any longer), 240*20=4800. A raidfinder SoO stamina trinket only grants 2328 stamina which is half of that. So what's with a) 25m tanks who basically always preferred stamina b) entry gear level raiders during their first time approach of anything past lfr? And it's not like more healthpoints are bad per se, it's only less optimal than having additional secondary stats.

I regulary always gemmed for stamina during progression until my healthpool felt high enough to survive certain bursts, it helped me while just learning the fight and not paying all attention to rage generation & AM.

Well you are right for sure .. there are times that gemming for stamina is viable. But it should be a decision for you and your healers not something a basic gear optimizing tool says by default. I'm only healing lfr on my toons capable of healing but there are times i want to take all of those simply put stamina on everything tanks (and no matter if that are warriors, monks or whatever) and kick them in their a** because it's a pain to keep them up and my mana goes down like water in a river flowing into the sea.

[Deleted]

This still assumes that your average LFR hero uses his active mitigation correctly (and frequently enough). If people take barely healable damage in lfr that's regulary not a gemming problem but not handling mechanics properly.

ie: sim yourself with full stamina, full pvp power (yes, you read that right) and full mastery.

PvP power will be dead last of course but surprisingly (or not) full stamina has the lowest TMI and full mastery is only a 15% damage reduce and this is simulation after all, thus playing perfectly. In reality the difference will be way smaller. And don't forget that at least in this tier having a bunch of additional healthpoints comes in handy rather often with 2p, since it's a % heal (in addition to our whole % based healing talent tier).

One anecdote: a friend of mine decided to play a paladin tank as an alt, got his ilvl to 480 and entered the ToT lfr. He heard that haste trumphs anything so he just stacked it everywhere and his damage dealt was remarkable for his gear. Sadly he had so little healthpoints (<500k buffed) that all harder hitting bosses brought him into serious troubles - in LFR mind you - ie: Lei Shen threeshotted him frequently. We can now argue this is an extreme case but is it really? He probably wasn't that good at keeping his SotR up which is argueable harder to do than pushing shield block every six seconds but that's exactly the primary targeted audience for AMR in the first place.

You'll want to jump on any of your least played toons, load them into AMR and get a general idea so you don't fail miserably in LFR and 5 mans. For everything past that there are guides and more Like "more spirit for healers", that's never a generally wrong answer but with enough experience, gear and certain techniques (which you regulary don't learn in proving grounds or from collecting 8 wolf pelts) you'll live without it as well and slightly better. And you can translate this *exactly* on us: "more health for tanks" which is also never a generally wrong answer but with enough experience, gear and certain techniques you'll live without it as well and slightly better.

edit: but i'd like to adjust that last comment slightly -> with the reliance on a passive stat like avoidance instead of mastery we could get the damage reduce disregard players skill level and more damage dealt as a bonus in return. But i'd still not change the stamina settings because a bigger health buffer is the only thing helping you on magical damage directly. More critical blocks or more revenge proccs could translate into more AM, but it mustn't.

[Deleted]

Well viewing from that angle you are fully right. For me amr is just a nice way to plan some possible gear upgrades without having to do the math on my own (reforging, etc.) especially with my gem choices and chardev not working for 5.4, upgrading items and so on. So maybe my suggestion for choosable gemming strategies makes even more sense.

[Deleted]

I use AMR in exactly that way as well It's an easy accessable calculator and all you have to do (and that's something you can only request from an advanced player, not a beginner) is hitting "edit stat weights" and pick 'medium' instead of 'high' for your stamina settings, *tada*

[Deleted]

Ahh never really looked at that button ... altough i miss actual data and current features for chardev it's a lot of fun to play around

[sirmo7]

what do u think about this
http://3.chart.apis.google.com/chart...8,1,0.5,1,-1.0

showing that mastery has lower dtps much than parry

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Madwar/simple

used T15 settings

[Tehpounderer]

@Yellowfive

Just adding my voice to the others. I feel the appropriate default build would be Avoidance (as it is more noob friendly) with a medium stamina setting, meaning we likely run stamina trinks, maybe a few enchants, and gems only to get tasty bonuses.

I also just want to reitierate that we aren't Druid tanks. We still hit SBlock in an Avoidance build and we will still be carrying some Mastery. We will still get a lot of 30% reduce and some 60% reduce. Not as much as a Mastery build for sure and, yes, we will be spikier but I tank 25 mans and, like Gliff, I will be going Avoidance build with middle of the road stam unless I'm dying too regularly. Tank DPS matters, even in 25s.

- - - Updated - - -

You all will love this... I fiddled around with the APL, talents and glyphs trying to produce a setup with the best DPS and "acceptable" variations in DTPS and TMI. It seems Dragon's Roar and Bloodbath, coupled with Glyphs of Incite, Resonating Power and Heavy Repercussions, produce the best dps using a theoretical T16 BiS gear set.

Yes, this means you spam Thunder Clap and Demoralizing Shout on cooldown. Jumps from about 290k to 312k. Also note that Simc has a bug where Glyph of Incite Heroic Strikes still cost rage. I've opened a ticket on it, but until its fixed this will make it appear as though you have lower SBar uptime and therefore higher DTPS with this setup.

Here is the relevant setup if someone else wants to try:

#!./simc 

warrior="Warrior_Prot_T16H"
level=90
race=orc
role=tank
position=front
professions=engineering=600/blacksmithing=600
talents=http://ptr.wowhead.com/talent#wyXZ|
glyphs=incite/resonating_power/heavy_repercussions
spec=prot

# Executed before combat begins. Accepts non-harmful actions only.

actions.precombat=flask,type=earth
actions.precombat+=/food,type=chun_tian_spring_rolls
actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats
actions.precombat+=/stance,choose=defensive
actions.precombat+=/battle_shout
actions.precombat+=/berserker_rage
actions.precombat+=/mogu_power_potion

# Executed every time the actor is available.

actions=auto_attack
actions+=/shield_wall,if=incoming_damage_2500ms>health.max*0.6
actions+=/last_stand,if=incoming_damage_2500ms>health.max*0.6&buff.shield_wall.down
actions+=/berserker_rage,if=buff.enrage.down&rage<=rage.max-10
actions+=/heroic_strike,if=buff.ultimatum.up|buff.glyph_incite.up
actions+=/run_action_list,name=dps_cds,if=stat.attack_power>health.max*0.20
actions+=/run_action_list,name=normal_rotation

actions.normal_rotation+=/shield_slam
actions.normal_rotation+=/revenge
actions.normal_rotation+=/battle_shout,if=rage<rage.max-20
actions.normal_rotation+=/shield_block
actions.normal_rotation+=/shield_barrier,if=buff.shield_barrier.down&rage>75
actions.normal_rotation+=/thunder_clap
actions.normal_rotation+=/demoralizing_shout
actions.normal_rotation+=/impending_victory,if=talent.impending_victory.enabled
actions.normal_rotation+=/victory_rush,if=!talent.impending_victory.enabled
actions.normal_rotation+=/devastate

actions.dps_cds=/shattering_throw
actions.dps_cds+=/skull_banner
actions.dps_cds+=/mogu_power_potion
actions.dps_cds+=/recklessness
actions.dps_cds+=/avatar,if=talent.avatar.enabled
actions.dps_cds+=/bloodbath,if=talent.bloodbath.enabled
actions.dps_cds+=/blood_fury,if=talent.bloodbath.enabled
actions.dps_cds+=/dragon_roar,if=talent.dragon_roar.enabled
actions.dps_cds+=/shockwave,if=talent.shockwave.enabled
actions.dps_cds+=/bladestorm,if=talent.bladestorm.enabled
actions.dps_cds+=/storm_bolt,if=talent.storm_bolt.enabled
actions.dps_cds+=/run_action_list,name=normal_rotation

head=faceguard_of_the_prehistoric_marauder,id=99409,upgrade=2,gems=indomitable_primal_160parry_120sta,reforge=mastery_dodge
neck=blackfuses_blasting_cord,id=105622,upgrade=2
shoulders=pauldrons_of_violent_eruption,id=105416,upgrade=2,gems=160parry_160mastery_320mastery_120parry,enchant=300sta_100dodge
chest=earthbreakers_steaming_chestplate,id=105512,upgrade=2,gems=160parry_120sta_160dodge_120sta_240sta,enchant=300sta
waist=untarnishable_greatbelt,id=105587,upgrade=2,gems=320exp_160hit_120sta_240sta,addon=nitro_boosts,reforge=mastery_dodge
legs=legguards_of_the_prehistoric_marauder,id=99410,upgrade=2,gems=160dodge_120sta_160dodge_120sta,enchant=430sta_165dodge
feet=ominous_mogu_greatboots,id=105588,upgrade=2,gems=240sta,enchant=140mastery
wrists=bracers_of_sordid_sleep,id=105415,upgrade=2,gems=240sta,enchant=170dodge
hands=shockstriker_gauntlets,id=105435,upgrade=2,gems=160parry_120sta_240sta_240sta,enchant=150sta,addon=synapse_springs_mark_ii
finger1=galakrond_control_band,id=105492,upgrade=2,gems=240sta
finger2=ring_of_the_iron_tomb,id=105536,upgrade=2,gems=160dodge_120sta,reforge=hit_parry
trinket1=curse_of_hubris,id=105645,upgrade=2
trinket2=vial_of_living_corruption,id=105568,upgrade=2
back=qianying_fortitude_of_niuzao,id=102250,upgrade=2,gems=320exp,enchant=200sta,reforge=mastery_dodge
main_hand=encapsulated_essence_of_immerseus,id=105417,upgrade=2,gems=320exp,enchant=rivers_song
off_hand=hellscreams_shield_wall,id=105693,upgrade=2,gems=320exp_320exp,enchant=170parry,reforge=mastery_parry

[Deleted]

Defensive: hit>exp>mastery>str/dodge/parry>crit, adjust stamina as you see fit. By default, I'd put stamina "high", such that stamina gems are recommended, but still pick up most socket bonuses with hybrid gems.

Balanced: hit>exp>dodge/parry>str/crit>mastery, adjust stamina as you see fit. By default, I would also go with a "high" stamina strategy.

Offensive: hit>exp>crit>dodge/parry>str>mastery, adjust stamina as you see fit. By default, I would go with a "medium" stamina strategy, using stamina mainly to pick up socket bonuses and on enchants, but still with a preference for stamina trinkets.

First I would try to think about what kind of players will go for those fixed options. I mean, 5 man/LFR players will want str over crit as a dps/mit stat, as they won't have enough vengeance to pull crit over str on dps nor on defense. If you put str over crit, heroic and normal players will say that you are putting that wrong. But they would know that they should change, and is more probable that if you did other way 5 man/LFR won't know it. Value what you prefer, or add an explanation.

It's probably irrelevant in most cases. Mayhaps some enchant, or one of these pieces that have more str while having less secondary stats. Can't reforge to mastery, and it shouldn't gem str unless str stat value is way too high. Trinkets... trinkets will never end right unless done by hand.

Besides that, I would still keep mastery over str/crit in the pure balanced. The offensive... if I wanted to do a completely offensive gear, I would put a stat weight such that it choose only parry/dodge pieces, and crit/exp + crit/hit pieces, gemming them with crit. Never parry/hit/exp nor dodge/hit/exp, nor crit/mastery pieces. There is no crit/dodge or crit/parry str gear after all.

[Charble]

That's *exactly* what riposte is for. A paladin can stack as much haste as he wants, as long as we just stack a similar amount of avoidance we both end up increasing damage dealt and decrease damage taken. We might not scale as well - point taken - but we won't be ~ 40-50% behind, only 10-20% which is an acceptable amount. We don't need to pretend to be a haste paladin or a monk, all tanks should be capable of dealing a rather similar amount of damage. Just recently Blizzard talked about damage ranges/deltas and they're quite happy with all dps speccs being in a <20% damage range, if tanks end up in the same region it's all superb.

That's a bit of my point though, that's it's not ideal. For haste paladins and monks, their DPS gains are also very strong defensive gains. In an ideal world, I would base Riposte off mastery rather than dodge/parry for better synergy, but I do understand their reasoning for attaching it to dodge/parry so they prevent it from becoming a "dead" stat. We are scaling now, but we're not scaling as well as paladins and monks.

What's your point with capping vengeance? When we're the worst scaling tank this won't change in higher regions of vengeance, or?

I was actually being intentionally vague because I had a specific strat in mind that I don't want to divulge. Basically, what I'm saying is you can use double-dipping mitigation and the healing from the 2pc to not get one shot from ludicrous amounts of stacks from tank debuffs for more vengeance. I played around with it on the PTR on a couple bosses and it worked pretty well.

[FTW]

Slootbag on his Prot Warrior gemming (Loosely paraphrased):

Personally I will be gemming full crit (maybe he meant crit/stam gems and full crit etc) seeing as you only gain 2-3% avoidance from gemming full avoidance because of the heavy DR on it. What happens when you're not tanking? That extra crit will help out with extra damage.

Keep in mind this is very, very loosely quoted but this was mostly along the lines of what he said. He also mentioned something about gemming crit obviously gives you 100% crit rating where as the extra avoidance gemming gives only 75% since it doesn't contribute that much to overall avoidance.

Any thoughts? Seems to make sense TBH.

[Odina]

Any thoughts? Seems to make sense TBH.

set up a taunt rotation with your co tank when your in offtank mode with a debuff, intervene / safeguard etc

What does that crit do for you the approx 50% you are tanking though compared to the avoidance where you will get all the avoidance benefits while tanking and 75% as crit vs the all crit methos of getting 100% crit value but 0 avoidance!

That's how I saw it... if all the fights had a true off tank req where we stood there doing nothing 99% of the time and just taunted for 1 hit every minute and the rest was just standing there while the other tank tanked then maybe I could see the crit way!

[Tehpounderer]

@FTW

To clarify, Slooty was not saying he would abhor avoidance gear, but rather, for gemming only, he would be going for crit as that is when the heaviest DR sets in... those last few stat points you get from gems. Do you agree?

@Yellowfive

This might be a reason to allow the selection of one set of stat weights for gear, and another for gems in AMR.