Fire mage - Haste soft cap/Mastery?

[Dusteyy]

Been doing some research and it looks like at a certain ilvl mastery becomes greater than haste. In looking at top level fire mages (Kuznam and Vykina) it looks like they are doing their openers and AT macro times with Mage Armor on. It also looks like they are going for haste up to about 5100 (12% ish) and then going for mastery.

Can anyone else verify this stat priority and that this definitely increases dps? Their reasoning for using Mage Armor during AT openers and burst phases before Combust is because the procs you get from BotH and Cha Ye's give you int which translates to crit which makes up for the lost crit% from molten. Anyone tried this and can verify it? I am definitely playing around with this on dummies right now and it looks very promising. Obviously you need the Armors glyph to avoid any dps loss from casting long ass armor casts.

Thoughts?

EDIT: I also just looked into the new soft cap feature on AMR and it shows that 5036 is what is require for an extra Combust tick. The next extra tick is at over 7k (basically unreachable without it being priority). I believe this is why top level mages are going for mastery instead.

[SuperSirius]

At their current gear level, it is better to use mage armor on AT because with all their procs up they are already at about 57% crit without molten armor. They start to reforge into mastery after 5036 haste is because there isn't enough haste to get to the next extra tick, so the haste ideally is useless except for RPPM. Higher mastery equals a much higher combust. I used Mage armor when I was at 14500 crit with that reforge and about 532 ilvl. It allowed for a 50K+ to a combustion. At the time I didn't have any RPPM trinkets, only shadowpan, and heroic LoTC.

Now if you are at a lower gear level like 530, it's risky to go with the mage armor because you wouldn't really have as much crit and you have a higher chance that your pyro's will not crit during your pyro spam.

[Henzington]

I have been doing this because the next tick of living bomb is around 13k haste which would meaning losing crit. The same goes for 1 extra tick at 7073 haste for another tick of combustion better to spend the 2k on mastery for a higher on average combustion. You could make the argument to go to 5273 but this only benefits your alter time combustion.

[Deleted]

because we are using LB nearly all the time, haste isnt as valuable anymore. Breakpoints of LB (3039 and the next one is 13163) NT(3056 - 6414 - 9762) with raidhaste
combustion glyphed (3056 - 5036 - 7073)

getting to 3056 haste isnt really possible so its clever to take the next breakpoint for combustion 5036 and dump the rest into mastery. and i guess thats what they are doing. although i dont think using mage armor is worth it.
i would recommend 5042 haste for one extra tick of combustion with every haste buff up if you are a troll.

also this isnt better after you hit a certain ilvl. its because of LB not getting additional ticks from more haste. (131163 haste isnt really possible)

[Dusteyy]

At their current gear level, it is better to use mage armor on AT because with all their procs up they are already at about 57% crit without molten armor. They start to reforge into mastery after 5036 haste is because there isn't enough haste to get to the next extra tick, so the haste ideally is useless except for RPPM. Higher mastery equals a much higher combust. I used Mage armor when I was at 14500 crit with that reforge and about 532 ilvl. It allowed for a 50K+ to a combustion. At the time I didn't have any RPPM trinkets, only shadowpan, and heroic LoTC.

Now if you are at a lower gear level like 530, it's risky to go with the mage armor because you wouldn't really have as much crit and you have a higher chance that your pyro's will not crit during your pyro spam.

Maybe a risk-reward type of thing? According to research, 1 Intellect=0.00039% Crit. Taking this into consideration, lets add up the procs and their respective intellect amounts and see if we cover for the missing 5% crit.

Breath of the Hydra = 7,903 (2/2 normal)
Cha-Ye's Essence of Brilliance = 7,903 (2/2 normal)
Jade Spirit = 1,650
Lightweave Embroidery = 2,000 (tailors only)
TOTAL = 19,456 Intellect
Translated into Crit: 19,456*00.00039% = 7.59% Crit

ONLY TRINKETS PROC = 15,806 * 00.00039% = 6.16% Crit (still covers the missing 5%)

Based on that very primitive and basic number crunch, if I get all of my procs (which I always do on an opener), I am more than making up for the missing 5% crit that I would get from having Molten Armor on still. Even if just my trinkets proc and my Lightweave or Jade Spirit do not, I would still be +1.2% crit NET after switching to Mage Armor. Taking that into consideration, maybe it would be best to play any subsequent AT macro burns by ear by watching your procs. I.E, if you dont have the procs to cover your missing crit, dont switch to Mage Armor.

Thoughts?

[Deleted]

Just to ask, why noone thinks about the lower GCD with more hast?

[Dusteyy]

Just to ask, why noone thinks about the lower GCD with more hast?

It has a negligible effect on overall dps. 50% haste is required to reduce the GCD for mages from 1.5 to 1 second. With procs, buffs, bloodlust, beserking, etc, stacking haste over a certain "soft cap" where you gain an extra tick of a certain spell is not a significant enough dps increase to continue to stack it. Stacking another secondary stat would be prioritized which in this case would be mastery.

[voltaa]

Just to ask, why noone thinks about the lower GCD with more hast?

Only pyro and IB benefit from being at global cap, and you hardly even cast IB so it would really only benefit 1 spell

[Polarthief]

Been doing some research and it looks like at a certain ilvl mastery becomes greater than haste. In looking at top level fire mages (Kuznam and Vykina) it looks like they are doing their openers and AT macro times with Mage Armor on. It also looks like they are going for haste up to about 5100 (12% ish) and then going for mastery.

Can anyone else verify this stat priority and that this definitely increases dps? Their reasoning for using Mage Armor during AT openers and burst phases before Combust is because the procs you get from BotH and Cha Ye's give you int which translates to crit which makes up for the lost crit% from molten. Anyone tried this and can verify it? I am definitely playing around with this on dummies right now and it looks very promising. Obviously you need the Armors glyph to avoid any dps loss from casting long ass armor casts.

Thoughts?

EDIT: I also just looked into the new soft cap feature on AMR and it shows that 5036 is what is require for an extra Combust tick. The next extra tick is at over 7k (basically unreachable without it being priority). I believe this is why top level mages are going for mastery instead.

Sounds fun. I'll try this next time I play Fire.

Btw, as far as Armors glyph goes, you should be using it anyways since we have a lack of glyphs to really use. An extra 10% physical damage reduction is extremely helpful on some fights [H Horridon, Tortos (especially Heroic; Quake Stomp and getting hit by spinning turtles), Ji-Kun (Especially Heroic when the birds/Quilla actually hurt), and Animus ("Tanking" your add)]. Not to mention, the occasional time when you change a talent and forget that your Armor falls off AFTER you enter combat (It happens to the best of us, sometimes)

---------- Post added 2013-06-15 at 01:41 PM ----------

Only pyro and IB benefit from being at global cap, and you hardly even cast IB so it would really only benefit 1 spell

And NT.

I barely use LB, so can it go below 1.0 GCD? (e.g., does it go to 0.5 if you cap GCD) If so, LB too.

[voltaa]

No, it starts and stops at a 1 second gcd

[Polarthief]

No, it starts and stops at a 1 second gcd

Ahh okay.

Still, NT counts, too

[voltaa]

Mhm, I just haven't used NT since the patch, I can't really be bothered to switch out of lei shen spec lol.

As far as stacking mastery, do it do it do it, I have been advocating stacking mastery since the start of the expansion (and was evenb doing it at the end of dragonsoul) the potential payoff is massive, in my current gear, when the stars align I have gotten combustions on 270k plus ignites (imagine spreading that to two other targets on council or the turtles on tortos :P)

[Polarthief]

Mhm, I just haven't used NT since the patch, I can't really be bothered to switch out of lei shen spec lol.

As far as stacking mastery, do it do it do it, I have been advocating stacking mastery since the start of the expansion (and was evenb doing it at the end of dragonsoul) the potential payoff is massive, in my current gear, when the stars align I have gotten combustions on 270k plus ignites (imagine spreading that to two other targets on council or the turtles on tortos :P)

Well I'm Frost atm anyways... Don't want to bother with the whole CM nerf/CM removal that's 99.9% guaranteed to come; they're not just going to nerf Pyroblast again.

[Henzington]

The only fight where NT is even a consideration should be heroic Horridon and if you have been farming it awhile the adds will die so fast that you could make the argument for living bomb instead.

[voltaa]

Well I'm Frost atm anyways... Don't want to bother with the whole CM nerf/CM removal that's 99.9% guaranteed to come; they're not just going to nerf Pyroblast again.

If they (read:when) nerf CM, I'll just go arcane, I like the spec better anyways, plus having all of that mastery fire gear makes having arc as an OS work a lot better, even with all that crit, arc scales well even with the less desirable secondaries, which I really like.

Totally off topic but since henzington is in here; how close are you to your cloak? Imve been checking wowprogress ilvl lists to see when ur going to pass me again and take top spot :P

[Henzington]

10/12 I got 0 titanstones the 2 weeks before they made lei shen a drop everytime. On the point of going arcane if the new instance has a much movement as the throne of thunder arcane will be rough and if they don't nerf critical mass the new 4p is totally useless.

[Dusteyy]

10/12 I got 0 titanstones the 2 weeks before they made lei shen a drop everytime. On the point of going arcane if the new instance has a much movement as the throne of thunder arcane will be rough and if they don't nerf critical mass the new 4p is totally useless.

I feel you on that one my friend. Same here. Anyone know the actual drop % of them? (besides the guaranteed Lei Shen).I am sitting at 9/12 and have been for 3 weeks (8/12 technically, just got 1 this week from Lei Shen). -_-

As far as the fire t16 4pc is concerned, I can't even express my disappointment in words. I will be so incredibly sad if it goes live. In looking at like warrior's 4pc for instance, I just want to go kill myself with a spork when comparing their to ours. Its simply stupid.

PS, how sad are you guys (Henz and volt) that you are not Horde for this tier? Beast Slaying for the win!

[Deleted]

I thought of doing this way before it bacame mainstream, just only the last few weeks that I have actually bothered to do it. I have gotten close to 400k ignites in the start of a fight, altho mainly in the region of 200-300k. mage armor really helps. on horridon this week I got close to 800k ignite (forgot to use mage armor even) sadly boss died with only half duration on boss + add of combustion

[voltaa]

PS, how sad are you guys (Henz and volt) that you are not Horde for this tier? Beast Slaying for the win!

I started the tier as a troll, but a good raid group>good racials any day

I thought of doing this way before it bacame mainstream

Hipsters...

[Henzington]

The 4p is a great bonus if it was for the first tier of an expansion when we are struggling to get crits but I am close to bis minus the cloak/trinket and some thunderforged pieces and I have almost 75% crit rate on pyroblast. The number of times I actually use inferno blast except to cleave on several fights is quite low. Same with the 2p fire bonus as extra haste is great when you stats are so low.