Okay. Blizzard needs to really make Warlock Tanks a 100% reality

[nightfalls]

To make my point a bit clearer, DA right now utilizes active mitigation. The difference between a DA lock using active mitigation and a DA lock not using active mitigation, though, is about 13% less damage taken/self healing, a significantly bigger difference compared to other tanks, where a tank who doesn't use active mitigation will require a significantly (~30%, up to 70% in the case of Monks) larger amount of healing to remain alive..

So a question: Most tanks have two forms of active mitigation: Physical and proactive (shield of the righteous, shield block, blood shield, etc.) and magical and reactive (word of glory, shield barrier, death strike), etc. My question, could you think of a proactive AM ability that would be unique? (Fury Ward by the way, is not very unique on its own right now).

As I have stated before, all that would be required for warlock tanks is A) removal of DA glyph, B) addition of 4th spec that grants Dark Apotheosis/ working Provocation, and changes Shadowbolt into Demonic slash at lvl 10, and gives various tanking abilities as one lvls up, including extra armor compared to Demo's Metamorphasis and crit immunity, and C) allow the 4th spec to acquire vengeance from damage that gives SP instead of AP.

SP/AP has been done (paladins), obviously extra health armor and crit immunity are (relatively) easy to tune and add, glyph needs to be gone. So my opinion: the actual demon model (not the crappy wings one) should be used for a tank form and possible a non-tank (maybe only some dps spec) form. Personally I still think that the wings model should be a glyph (and just the model!) for all specs sort of like Treant Form.

Having not really touched DA itself with a 10 foot pole, what would be unique about this compared to other tanks? Not in terms of look but playstyle?

[Brusalk]

So a question: Most tanks have two forms of active mitigation: Physical and proactive (shield of the righteous, shield block, blood shield, etc.) and magical and reactive (word of glory, shield barrier, death strike), etc. My question, could you think of a proactive AM ability that would be unique? (Fury Ward by the way, is not very unique on its own right now).

First question is straightforward in my opinion. Fury Ward absorbs the same type of damage as the other physical/proactive abilities. As for a magical/reactive ability, have DA form not consume charges on Healthstones when used, and have a lower cooldown at the cost of fury. Lore wise it could be something like infusing the healthstones with demonic fury and then eating that.

That way you have Fury Ward to prevent physical, and you have healthstones to heal back up some burst magic damage.

SP/AP has been done (paladins), obviously extra health armor and crit immunity are (relatively) easy to tune and add, glyph needs to be gone. So my opinion: the actual demon model (not the crappy wings one) should be used for a tank form and possible a non-tank (maybe only some dps spec) form. Personally I still think that the wings model should be a glyph (and just the model!) for all specs sort of like Treant Form.

I think a good solution would be giving Demonology the green Meta form, and giving DA the purple Meta form (the purple one even looks more ragged and torn up).
Alternatively Demonology can get the wings (temporarily becoming a half-demon) and DA can get the full Meta form model (fully becoming a demon to tank).

Having not really touched DA itself with a 10 foot pole, what would be unique about this compared to other tanks? Not in terms of look but playstyle?

The number of potential choices when tanking is amazing. DA can talent/pet-sac to be better at different types of tanking roles at the cost of not being as good elsewhere.

Dark Regen for a 2min CD, or Soul Leech for a damage -> mitigation passive, or Harvest Life for a fury builder/AoE threat generator/self-heal.
Soul Link + GoSac for 20% max health, SacPact for a substantial absorb shield every 1 min, or DB for absorbing huge hits at the expense of higher damage taken later on.
The new breath of gul'dan talent on PTR for a front-conal slow, or shadowfury for a aoe stun.
AV for doing more damage to stuff attacking you. KjC if you need to move a lot (not really applicable come 5.4). MF for when you have to pick up lots of mobs that are spread out.


DA has Soul Fire for doing lots of threat for fury, and then Fury Ward for an absorb with a high fury cost. The bigger pool of fury and 2 charges of Fury Ward means that DA tanks can choose when they want to use their active mitigation more, allowing for less damage taken by better timing Fury Wards at the cost of more damage taken while post-poning it.

DA also must keep up a passive enfeeblement aura to debuff mobs around them (at the additional cost of fury). HoG allows for AoE threat + fury generation when there's lots of mobs.

Demonic Slash has a 10 yard range and high fury generation as well as a low-ish recharge with 3 max stacks.

Immolation Aura allows you to do AoE threat at the cost of fury, while at the same time continuing to use other attacks (unlike monks for example who must channel Crane Kick)

Corruption for fury generation allows the multi-dotting playstyle as a tank.


As for pet sac, you can sac an Imp for a dispel. Voidwalker for a Max Health CD. Succ for a AoE knockback. Felhunter for a second interrupt (at range, long cd). (Carrion Swarm is the first, melee, short cd)


I can go on more but a lot of that is very unique to DA tanks when compared to other tanks.

[re1gn1te]

If you want a warlock tanking spec, then you'll have to give up demo as a DPS spec. I think allot of locks won't be down to being forced out of demo DPS.

[Brusalk]

If you want a warlock tanking spec, then you'll have to give up demo as a DPS spec. I think allot of locks won't be down to being forced out of demo DPS.

That's a false dichotomy fallacy. There's no reason why it cannot be implemented as a 4th spec.

[Bombino]

I think it's asking for too much, they already gave warlocks a ton of love, and you can already tank to an extent.

[Deleted]

I think it's asking for too much, they already gave warlocks a ton of love, and you can already tank to an extent.

They gave a warlocks ton of work, not love. They took from us numerous things away after 7 years of perfectly good design which no one asked for and gave us dumbed down mechanics and gimmicky stuff.

[Deleted]

They gave a warlocks ton of work, not love. They took from us numerous things away after 7 years of perfectly good design which no one asked for and gave us dumbed down mechanics and gimmicky stuff.

I'm not sure I'd call demo perfectly good design, but I'll agree wholeheartedly on affliction - that was changed far too much, fairly sure GC mentioned that affliction was one of the more "complete" feeling specs at some point in cata, it's soulshard system needed reworking, but not the complete overhaul we got.

Change isn't always necessarily for the best, and certainly not always desired or an indication of affection.

[nightfalls]

I'm not sure I'd call demo perfectly good design, but I'll agree wholeheartedly on affliction - that was changed far too much, fairly sure GC mentioned that affliction was one of the more "complete" feeling specs at some point in cata, it's soulshard system needed reworking, but not the complete overhaul we got.

One thing I'd love to pick up (unless they really ruin it in 5.4, I can't tell) is Destruction. The spec just seems on another level compared to back when I saw it last.

[Deleted]

One thing I'd love to pick up (unless they really ruin it in 5.4, I can't tell) is Destruction. The spec just seems on another level compared to back when I saw it last.

I was intrigued with the mop design of destro at first by the looks on the ptr

BUT

once 5.0 droped I litteraly lost HALF of my binds. The spec, while a bit complicated in cata, lost too much depth in mop. And even the single target rotation for RoF is going to be toned down in 5.4. I would trade mop destro for the improved imp cata any day, at least in cata there was a bit of rotation diversity.

I'm not sure I'd call demo perfectly good design, but I'll agree wholeheartedly on affliction - that was changed far too much, fairly sure GC mentioned that affliction was one of the more "complete" feeling specs at some point in cata, it's soulshard system needed reworking, but not the complete overhaul we got.

Never had problem with demo, but yeah, mop now feels smoother. But affly is just torn out both pvp and pve wise, the spec feeling is just not here and I 100% blame it on MG, which I could kinda bear with, and SB:SS which i deeply despise. KJC even made things less interasting.

But this is off topic, nvm

[Uselessrouge]

No, developer ressources should be invested elsewhere.


why?


because rogues should tank befor warlocks :P

[Jessicka]

One thing I'd love to pick up (unless they really ruin it in 5.4, I can't tell) is Destruction. The spec just seems on another level compared to back when I saw it last.

Destruction definitely needed it. Demonology I'm torn on, I enjoyed the old playstyle well enough, so I'm not sure the changes were necessary, but I do like the results of the changes. Affliction didn't need changing, caving to the 'channelled filler' crowd and making such a radical change is I believe proving to have been a mistake.

[Deleted]

One thing I'd love to pick up (unless they really ruin it in 5.4, I can't tell) is Destruction. The spec just seems on another level compared to back when I saw it last.

I really like destro too, but I'm always hesitant to bring it up when talking about how I feel in terms of the redesign since I've seen a fair few destro locks saying they don't like what blizz did to it and I rarely ever played destro until MOP, I was always affliction or demo (bar TBCs 1 button spamfest).

I'll be sad to see ROF leave the rotation in 5.4, since I think filler will be very bland without it - an extra button added to the mix would be nice, but I've really enjoyed what they did to it so far, more so than what demo has turned into even.

Demonology I was always fond of, even when it was a pretty poor spec in older expansions - I'd managed to drag competitive numbers out of it in tiers where it wasn't exactly your first choice. I'm still not that big a fan of meta, I liked the spec to feel a bit more pet focused - but I'll take MOP demo over Cata demo any day, MWC really left bitter memories of playing the spec in that expansion, but I'll always have a soft spot for TBC / WOTLK demo, even if it's probably mostly rose tinted glasses. Amusingly, despite my belief it should be pet centric, I'm enjoying UVOLS demo more than "normal" demo, having a horde of imps is giving me far more satisfaction than I expected - shame bad RNG can sour a pull if you just don't get any decent procs.

[Deleted]

This would open Pandora's Box of nonsensical specs for several classes. Next thing we know, we'll have warriors and rogues healing with first aid kits or some similar stupidity.

[Deleted]

This would open Pandora's Box of nonsensical specs for several classes. Next thing we know, we'll have warriors and rogues healing with first aid kits or some similar stupidity.

a numerous people cried for lock and dk healers, calling something like black magic healing nonsense. just do a quick search and.... puke I guess

[CDShaidar]

For the record, and I didn't read through 18 pages of this so apologies if this was mentioned, but in MoP alpha and early beta warlock tanking was being fully developed as an end game viable role. The concept was scraped by GC and I'm about 80% sure arguments over this are what lead to Xel "leaving" the team. That being said, I'm not sure that it was the wrong call but it certainly wasn't scrapped due to any inability to implement it correctly or in a balanced manner but rather due to conflicts with design goals and "vision".

Any-who, carry on.

[Deleted]

For the record, and I didn't read through 18 pages of this so apologies if this was mentioned, but in MoP alpha and early beta warlock tanking was being fully developed as an end game viable role. The concept was scraped by GC and I'm about 80% sure arguments over this are what lead to Xel "leaving" the team. That being said, I'm not sure that it was the wrong call but it certainly wasn't scrapped due to any inability to implement it correctly or in a balanced manner but rather due to conflicts with design goals and "vision".

Any-who, carry on.

IIRC, Xel was forced to "leave" because of a) rude comments on message forums (not insulting others, mind, just using curses and being forceful and boastful in his arguments, not a fitting representation of Blizz and they weren't meant to be on forums in the first place, even he said the job and stress got the better of his ego) and b) forcing and pushing the Cataclysm spell on Warlocks despite not being suitable (it was a spell that smart melee knew to avoid, no protection against ranged, and was bugged leaving you at 1 hp) and arguing over that with the other devs. IIRC, Xel said he showed his tanking format for warlocks to another Dev who said, in as much of an exact quote as I can remember: "It's good, but it doesn't suit warlocks". You can argue the lore of Warlocks to be either full DPS, Tank, or even healers in the same way TOR managed to argue the Sith to be healers by being selfishly altruistic, but at the end of the day, it's a radical departure from the original design of Warlocks.

---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 01:22 PM ----------

Destruction definitely needed it. Demonology I'm torn on, I enjoyed the old playstyle well enough, so I'm not sure the changes were necessary, but I do like the results of the changes. Affliction didn't need changing, caving to the 'channelled filler' crowd and making such a radical change is I believe proving to have been a mistake.

Affli was a bit too good on Multi-dot, of course the 5.4 shift of damage to DoTs is better than live, and I think we both agree Shadow's Embrace was tedious. Personally, I see as much difference between MG and Drain Soul as between Shadow Bolt and decimation Soul Fire, so maybe it's not meant to feel all too different as long as the damage is there. I think it suits Affli more than a casted spell, and it feels as distinct from Spriests as Destro feels distinct from Fire (similar in casts because there's only so many models in the world, but differing procs, focuses, and priorities)

[Deleted]

The concept was scraped by GC and I'm about 80% sure arguments over this are what lead to Xel "leaving" the team. That being said, I'm not sure that it was the wrong call but it certainly wasn't scrapped due to any inability to implement it correctly or in a balanced manner but rather due to conflicts with design goals and "vision".

a) GC isn't a one man army, pinning it all on him is stupid. Fairly sure Xelnath mentioned that with demo tanking he didn't listen to enough feedback from the number guys on the team, who said that there were some major problems with the raw % dmg reductions DA put out.

b) There were massive balancing problems, anyone who took part in the beta knows this, Xelnath mentioned it himself iirc in the "not listening to numbers guy".

c) Xel's departure certainly was NOT over demonology tanking, if anything it was a mix of him pushing too hard for certain things for warlocks in the face of opposition from the rest of the TEAM (Not GC, they have a team of designers, not Xelnath and GC over there) - not all of these changes would have been good ones either, they have a team for a reason (see Cataclysm, Xel's pet addition that didn't fix the pvp problems we had) and he was far too open with mentioning when he wasn't happy with the way things were going on the dev side in public spaces (Again, see the Cataclysm debacle).

Affli was a bit too good on Multi-dot, of course the 5.4 shift of damage to DoTs is better than live, and I think we both agree Shadow's Embrace was tedious. Personally, I see as much difference between MG and Drain Soul as between Shadow Bolt and decimation Soul Fire, so maybe it's not meant to feel all too different as long as the damage is there. I think it suits Affli more than a casted spell, and it feels as distinct from Spriests as Destro feels distinct from Fire (similar in casts because there's only so many models in the world, but differing procs, focuses, and priorities)

Thing is, we're STILL strong at multidotting, it fixed nothing and just caused a bunch of other problems that blizzard still can't find a way to deal with after a year, I'd considering being OP on a few fights the lesser of two evils than the raging mobility problems we've had and complete mess it made of afflic pvp.

[Jessicka]

For the record, and I didn't read through 18 pages of this so apologies if this was mentioned, but in MoP alpha and early beta warlock tanking was being fully developed as an end game viable role. The concept was scraped by GC and I'm about 80% sure arguments over this are what lead to Xel "leaving" the team. That being said, I'm not sure that it was the wrong call but it certainly wasn't scrapped due to any inability to implement it correctly or in a balanced manner but rather due to conflicts with design goals and "vision".

Any-who, carry on.

He did, he said he had no idea how tanking worked and built it on the Wrath model. Between the amount of work it needed to bring it up to speed, and self evidently divisive nature of such a change (potentially far worse backlash than the DK tree-reassignments), the team as a whole decided to leave it out.

I think the arguments were more about his taking on the unofficial public role of "Warlock lead", when there was never meant to be any 'class leads' for obvious reasons: That it would lead to bias which would pit them against the rest of the team, while at the same time detracting from the rest of the team's own efforts in the classes' development by making it look like it was all that one guy's work. I rather suspect he did both.

[Deleted]

Thing is, we're STILL strong at multidotting, it fixed nothing and just caused a bunch of other problems that blizzard still can't find a way to deal with after a year, I'd considering being OP on a few fights the lesser of two evils than the raging mobility problems we've had and complete mess it made of afflic pvp.

Really? I had thought the point of MG was to have Afflocks focus on single target when it's needed rather than having all DoTs and Shadow Embrace stacks on the boss, and then go multi-dot the non-crucial adds because Shadowbolting didn't do much, but I'm not that sure about how Aff went in Cata (I remember the Drain Lifing in Wrath was because Shadow Bolt was about as useful as Drain Life and at least DL gave life back). But that's getting offtopic from tanking (even though I really really miss Dark Pact).

For the record, from Xel's apology thread:

"Yesterday, I said some very disrespectful and selfish things about the class design team at Blizzard. They decided as a team that Cataclysm was the right spell to go with for Destruction, but in my pride, I made it about myself. I felt powerless to influence the meeting and took out my frustration publicly.

That has led to a series of correct decisions on the part of the Blizzard, as a game designer does not speak for the company and doing so, especially in a negative light about the team he works with everyday is extremely destructive to team cohesion...."

So, he wasn't forced to leave purely over tanking, and people blaming GC should probably pay more attention to Xel's prior posts.

[Deleted]

Really? I had thought the point of MG was to have Afflocks focus on single target

It was, and it completly guted the dot and the mechanics tied to it. SB:SS made us the best choice in multidoting in mop, not the dots itself.