Tirion to alliance, Darion to the horde. My thoughts on the matter.

[leaks]

Why does Tirion take shit from Sylvanas? He could end that hoe.

Because he ran out of miracles to pluck out of his ass.

[Zulkhan]

And what free will is there for the Forsaken? Last I checked, it was "Serve us or the level 5s will loot your skull for a quest".

Those renegades didn't just mind their own businesses elsewhere, they wanted to attack and rebel against the other forsaken, or something almost like that anyway.

[Grocalis]

I always wondered why we have only human undeads playable not the rest of the races :|

This has been said countless times in the lore.

The plague of undeath created by Ner'zhul was designed specifically to turn humanity. He concocted the potent sickness to hit the race with the highest population of that age, turning humanity into ravaged ghouls. The Forsaken are supposed to be those humans that were turned by the plague, but became free before they completed the transformation into the mindless (ghouls, zombies). This is why they have clawed hands and feet, as they were slowly being warped into ghouls. Any other race that became sick with the plague simply died a very violent death, and those that came later (the dark rangers, Sylvanas) were turned using conventional necromancy by Arthas. This is actually one of the reasons he had to use the Scourge to destroy Silvermoon in the first place, because the plague wouldn't work as well versus the High Elves.

As of Cataclysm, new Forsaken are being raised by the Val'kyr. It was explained in external media and the Silverpine questing that the Val'kyr have become weakened by the loss of the Lich King. Without him, they are only able to use limited necromancy, in this case, "ascending" vrykul into undeath as they were designed. Since humans are descended from vrykul,they are also open to the Val'kyr necromancy. This is a plot point for much of Silverpine, as Crowley goes around turning what's left of the local human populations into Worgen, which in turn makes them immune to the Val'kyr's ability to raise them into undeath. The Alliance also knew of this weakness, sending the non-human forces of the 7th Legion to Silverpine specifically because they couldn't be raised. This is also why when Sylvanas was killed, it took three Val'kyr pooling their magics and sacrificing their souls to bring her back from the dead. Her being a high elf made her immune to any conventional reanimation.

[Grocalis]

How is that any different from how she is currently "we need more corpses to turn into Forsaken since our endless wars are thinning our ranks as a population, murder everyone in Southshore and raise them into undeath"

Technically everyone in Southshore other then a few people like the flight master were turned into toxic sludge. It's not really the type of undeath that helps the Forsaken, since it made the entire area unlivable even to them.

The rest of the population, mostly Hillsbrad proper, either fled north and joined Crowley to become worgen, or they remained behind, were captured, and turned into am abomination horror by a Forsaken traitor, which we later put down. For the most part other then gaining the land and a few people in Arathi, the Forsaken didn't get too much out of the Hillsbrad conquest.

[leaks]

How is that any different from how she is currently "we need more corpses to turn into Forsaken since our endless wars are thinning our ranks as a population, murder everyone in Southshore and raise them into undeath"

Well she only had to resort to it because Garrosh forced the invasion of Gilneas and the Alliance showed up and turned it into a full blown war. Once he's gone maybe we can just hire some pandaren to wall those mutts back up.

[Zulkhan]

How is that any different from how she is currently "we need more corpses to turn into Forsaken since our endless wars are thinning our ranks as a population, murder everyone in Southshore and raise them into undeath"

Simple, Southshore was an Alliance town, that had constant skirmishes with Tarren Mill, Gilneas's people is utterly hated by the Forsaken, regardless of Garrosh, while the Argent Crusade is a neutral organization, which the Forsaken don't have particular problems with. Suddenly attacking them, adding another enemy to the list would be complete retardness, and i guess Sylvanas is a little smarter than that.

[Matt0193]

There is no reason at all for Darion to stop Forsaken.

The AC and the KotEB have already said they're monitoring Sylvanus as she's close to becoming another Lich Queen if she continues on this path. I'd reckon that's a pretty big reason.

[Talen]

Yeah, too bad that no one gave a fuck about if Eitrigg had effectively did "atrocities" or just fought his war, since he clearly said to Tirion that when the madness and the greed of his brethren became blatant and clear (as Gul'dan's manipulations aswell) he left the Horde, because he saw them as "lost".

You know what this actually says. It says he was there and angegd when the Horde was rampaging through Alliance lands and territories. It says he is guilty. Are you really going to argue letting war criminals off the hook simply because they now say "I'm sorry"?

No, the crowd there wanted the orc dead because....was an orc, despite the fact that he left the Horde and lived in isolation for countless of years, minding his own businesses. They just dubbed him as a "creature of darkness", simply beliving that an orc was evil by default, and so they felt justified in mocking, spitting, kicking him and then killing him in a public execution, all sustained by a pathetic worm like Barthillas, that wasn't absolutely worth to be called a "paladin".

The fact that he was an Orc proved that a: he was an invader and b: had taken part in the atrocities, corrborated by his own story.

You may want to argue that he had a change of heart, but you are arguing that he should be forgiven all the wrongs he has done simply because he's had a change of heart. That the people should forgive the atrocities he was part of because now he said "sorry".

"Almost without a doubt" it's a shallow and pretentious statement for justify a death execution, in fact they never talked about Eitrigg regarding what he was supposed to have done, there was just biased despise about the fact that he was an orc and so an evil creature "without a doubt", and Barthillas wouldn't never gave up his desire to let off steam his bitterness to Eitrigg simply because he was an orc and wanted to unload his frustrations to him, not even if someone would have brought blatant proves that Eitrigg didn't have a fuck to do with his parents's death.

Was he an Orc? Yes. Then he was part of the invading army that rampaged across the EK. That makes him guilty.

Yeah, Tirion had to abandon his wife and son because no one tried to understand his position, the reasons for which he did what he did, they were too biased and blind on the matter that refused to even conceive the thought that an orc really saved a human life, which was impossible since the orcs are all evil creatures, they prefered to belive that one of their greatest heroes became mad and "dreamed" everything than actually reconsider their position, at least on that particular matter.

Tirion drew arms against his countrymen and own men in order to save a war criminal who took part in unknown atrocities against his own people and those of other human nations.

Ofcourse Tirion didn't love to abandon his wife and son, since he didn't just abandoned them, he abandoned any personal pleasure and comfort, the respect of his people, his wealthy position as lord of Hearthglen, everything, and he did it for the sake of honor, because that "evil creature" saved his life

That creature was a war criminal who had taken part in a near genocide. Are you really saying one act of kindness outweighs the crimes Eitrigg perpetrated against other humans and nations? That that one act absolves him of all his crimes?

And don't make so melodramatic the fact that he STROKE DOWN his own men, he didn't hurt them, he has been very careful to just counter-attack, defend himself but without hurting anyone.

Then his rescue was a sham.

EJL

[Verdugo]

The AC and the KotEB have already said they're monitoring Sylvanus as she's close to becoming another Lich Queen if she continues on this path. I'd reckon that's a pretty big reason.

Darion didnt want to destroy Scourge out of honor or because he wanted to protect the weak. It was pure revenge caused by the betrayal. Nothing more.

[Vaelorian]

If the Order or Knights of the Silver Hand were brought back, I think it should not be an alliance faction.

Imo the Knights were (just as the Argent Dawn/Crusade) a force for good. As paladins (atleast from origination) are a force of good, they should not be affiliated with any faction.

People can argue that the Silver Hand was faction based in Lore and perhaps commited acts that did not look "very noble" perhaps. It was a time of good vs evil. "Humans vs Demonic Orcs". Those orcs were an evil as a whole. And thus the order was affiliated imo.

Now.... I think they should remain unaffiliated even if the old lore figures return. Times have changed and the order should adapt to a more noble cause: The fusion of horde an alliance into one force vs the coming of the burning legion.

When the major threat is defeated, factions can go back to their squabling like they always do when there is no major enemy to face united.

[Kathranis]

Didn't Tirion get kicked out of the Alliance for saving Eitrigg's life?

I feel like turning him into an Alliance character would sorta defeat the whole purpose of him as a character. He founded the Argent Dawn purely because he didn't want to be forced to pick sides.

[JudgePayne]

Didn't Tirion get kicked out of the Alliance for saving Eitrigg's life?

I feel like turning him into an Alliance character would sorta defeat the whole purpose of him as a character. He founded the Argent Dawn purely because he didn't want to be forced to pick sides.

Not really he was judged by Admiral Daelin Proudmoore, Arch-Mage Antonidas, Archbishop Alonsus Faol, and Prince Arthas Menethil and found to be guilty of treason.

His rank and title were taken and his powers stripped by Uther

since Tirion had assaulted Alliance soldiers, he could no longer be a member of the Knights of the Silver Hand and was doomed to exile. Uther the Lightbringer performed a ceremony to strip Tirion of his powers and sent him home to gather some supplies.

His exile was to last until he had paid for his crimes against the alliance.

[Wyrt]

The Knights of the Silver Hand are still part of the alliance. All the player human/dwarf pallies are members of it as per the level 3ish quests in their starting zones. The alliance also has the Hand of Argus which has gotten pretty much no development so that really needs some development.

I'm pretty sure the Knights of the Silver Hand that Tirion merged with the Argent Dawn was his own order and not the original one. Being an exile and removed from the Silver Hand he wouldn't really have authority to merge the real one.

[Matt0193]

Darion didnt want to destroy Scourge out of honor or because he wanted to protect the weak. It was pure revenge caused by the betrayal. Nothing more.

That was what one of the devs replied to in one of the lore posts, that both the AC and KotEB were watching Sylvanus. If Darion didn't act against the Forsaken, he'd likely have the forsaken hunting him. Fact is, as it stands the KotEB, and by merit Darion, are watching the Forsaken for now. But considering that Sylvanus took Koltira and has likely attempted to break any sort of link with Thassarian, I doubt Darion would look kindly upon seeing one of his more prominent Knights being tortured.

[Zulkhan]

Ok Talen, keep the same chant "he was an Orc, he fought in the wars, so with no doubt he indeed killed women and children in his way because he was there" for random dismiss my statements and arguing that the leader of the Argent Crusade is a vile traitor of the Alliance. I bet Varian share your excact point of view.

Eitrigg didn't had a change of heart, he didn't save a human because suddenly thought that humans were good, they were still his enemies, still, he saved that particular human life because he felt that Tirion deserved that, because Tirion demonstrated to be a honorable warrior, and he fought honorably even against what was for him a "foul creature" initially, which was sufficient for other humans for feeling justified to just slaughter the "monster" with little regards about "honor".

The fact that Eitrigg says "You fight with honor, for a human" obviously means that not all humans he fought or just saw fighting in the wars were like Tirion, and indeed he wouldn't had the guts of saying a thing like that if during his "bloodlust" period he would have passed most of his time in commiting "atrocities", by killing women and children and not just fighting armed soldiers in fair confrontations.
And no, killing humans in such situations are not "atrocities", that is just fight a war, while indeed many other orcs became completely consumed by their bloodlust and killed any human life in their path, a thing that orcs like Saurfang and many others has not been able to avoid, reason for which they felt depressed and ashamed when the bloodlust faded and the memories of what they did became pretty vivid and haunting.

Still, orcs like these has been put to internment camps, before Thrall freed them, why Eitrigg had to be put to death execution, if not for just make a public and "entertaining" execution and satisfy the anger of the crowd? Because the orc was a "danger" for Hearthglen, "plotting" an attack? Well, we know well that was a bullshit.

Eitrigg abandoned the Horde when he saw greedy chieftains play with the lives of his sons, and when the blood curse began to wane in veins, he has been able to finally see, with clear mind, what the Horde truly became, a war-machine guided by corrupt chieftains, twisted and manipulated by Gul'dan.

For the rest, even in the old Plaguelands quests the whole mess with Tirion has been regarded as a WRONG on his regards, exiled for a wrong judgement. And the most amusing thing is that Uther himself, the greatest paladin of Lordaeron in his naive convinction of doing what he thought was the right thing to do, "stripped" Tirion of his connection with the Light, as "punishment" for the "treason". Too bad that the Light they so reverently worshipped completely ignored Uther, and Tirion has been able to recall again his Light powers when he had an urgent need of them.

Then his rescue was a sham.

Yeah, becase just satisfy the bloodlust of an angry crowd was the right thing to do indeed.

His rank and title were taken and his powers stripped by Uther

Nope, this is what actually Uther belived in his arrogance, Tirion has been able to recall his powers almost instantly when he needed to heal Eitrigg.

"Men could strip him of his armor and titles, they could take away his home and his wealth—but the Light would always been within him."

His exile was to last until he had paid for his crimes against the alliance.

Tirion has been exiled because he refused to "break" his supposed "oath" with the orc. Attacking Alliance soldiers meant little (he didn't hurt them, not even a scratch) because he was already exiled; Tirion accepted it, but he had to save Eitrigg before going to wandering in the wild, reason for which he had no choices but to fight his own men for achieve that.

Apart this, i think that Tirion was quite condemned to a permanent exile, no one defined temporal limits about it.

[Talen]

Ok Talen, keep the same chant "he was an Orc, he fought in the wars, so with no doubt he indeed killed women and children in his way because he was there" for random dismiss my statements and arguing that the leader of the Argent Crusade is a vile traitor of the Alliance. I bet Varian share your excact point of view.

Whether you like it ir not, he was an Orc involved in the First and Second Wars and thus associated wioth and guilty of the atrocities carried out by that army.

He had a change of heart after the war. Does that stiop him beign a war criminal? Does that makes him not guilty of having taken part?

Eitrigg didn't had a change of heart, he didn't save a human because suddenly thought that humans were good, they were still his enemies, still, he saved that particular human life because he felt that Tirion deserved that, because Tirion demonstrated to be a honorable warrior, and he fought honorably even against what was for him a "foul creature" initially, which was sufficient for other humans for feeling justified to just slaughter the "monster" with little regards about "honor".

So what? He was part of an invading army who despoiled entire nations and killed tens of thosands of innocents. You think saving Tirions life means all that should be forgiven? That he should be let loose to roam around with naught but his own worthlss word that he has changed to hold him in check?

Still, orcs like these has been put to internment camps, before Thrall freed them, why Eitrigg had to be put to death execution, if not for just make a public and "entertaining" execution and satisfy the anger of the crowd? Because the orc was a "danger" for Hearthglen, "plotting" an attack? Well, we know well that was a bullshit.

And yet the town was hit by a sizeable raiding party which managed to free him. What does this tell us? That there were Orc raiding parties, sizeable ones, dangerous ones, in the area and being a threat.

For the rest, even in the old Plaguelands quests the whole mess with Tirion has been regarded as a WRONG on his regards, exiled for a wrong judgement.

Tirion attacked his own men in order to save an Orc. He was guilty.

eah, becase just satisfy the bloodlust of an angry crowd was the right thing to do indeed.

Regardless of the moties of the crowd, Eitrigg was guilty. As was Tirion.

EJL

[Deleted]

I wish I could leave Horde n Alliance n have Argent Crusade as my faction n Tirion as my leader.

[Verdugo]

I wish I could leave Horde n Alliance n have Argent Crusade as my faction n Tirion as my leader.

I wish to kill Tirion so that you dont have him as your leader.

[Yriel]

alliance deathknights still have Thassarian who can act as a leader of alliance deathknights.

So whats the point then ? Instead of a neutral deathknight and a neutral paladin organization you want you want an alliance deathknight and paladin and a horde deathknight and paladin organization ?
It's just more of the same.

[Wyrt]

So whats the point then ? Instead of a neutral deathknight and a neutral paladin organization you want you want an alliance deathknight and paladin and a horde deathknight and paladin organization ?
It's just more of the same.

Both factions already have 2 paladin organizations each. Alliance has Silver Hand and Hand of Argus, Horde has Blood Knights and Sunwalkers.

The point? Different races are different. Paladins don't have universal lore like death knights do. I don't really see a reason to have faction specific death knights though.