[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[Xs]

SancWrath that way would be so ueber-powerful it´s beyond good. No one would ever take DP or HA ever again. you get a mini BL and a mini HA in one+ Wings in that case then I assume. That´s too strong.
I´d like to see SancWrath as it is now be baseline for a Holy AW and have SancWrath be reworked

Yeah I know its too powerful, I mostly threw it out as an idea to get the ball rolling, and because having a 2 second Holy Shock is far too efficient

---------- Post added 2013-06-24 at 02:57 PM ----------

Sounds nice, but the Problem is that GC doesn´consider the EF hot is too strong only, but he dislikes the mastery buff being reapplied by the hot. So it doesnt matetr that much if you reduced it to 50% or 10%, it´s either removed at all or not.

Which is where hes wrong, its not a brilliant mechanic but its where most of our utility in Effective Health for the raid comes from, without that we're fairly useless from a healer line up decision

[Medario]

Yeah I know its too powerful, I mostly threw it out as an idea to get the ball rolling, and because having a 2 second Holy Shock is far too efficient

---------- Post added 2013-06-24 at 02:57 PM ----------



Which is where hes wrong, its not a brilliant mechanic but its where most of our utility in Effective Health for the raid comes from, without that we're fairly useless from a healer line up decision

Agreed, but I highly doubt we get EF back working with Mastery

[Absintheminded]

If SH is ever the be useful for Holy, then it needs to validate the use of those GCD's in your rotation. It should be given an on-attack effect, and depending on the the power of said effect, possibly give HP. If it's strong then HP is not necessary, but I would like to see HP just as it makes Haste more attractive just as it does for Prot/Ret.

[Freia]

So this time make Daybreak hot and not HR? hm, a bit going round in circles

I said something to make it overheal less and give us a boost. I didn't think too hard on it. I was throwing ideas out just like you are.

Hm, fair enough, your concerns about RNG, but giving a 100% HP ability is probably to powerful to ever go live. Which other spells currently available could therefore giev HP or the Chance for HP? HS and HR and ToR do grant HP already. Remaining spells are EF, SS, FoL, DL, HP-LH-SoE-Daybreak. Daybreak granting HP after having casted HR anyway: sounds wrong. T6 talents combined with HP?-to Long CD. EF-Chance for HP?-not gonna happen. Leaves us with FoL and/or DL and a psossible Chance for HP. Numbers for them don´t look that good either in 25, bit more maybe ijn 10.
So what do you suggest? or no new HP granting ability at all? I don´t wanna Judge for HP aka do damage without healing for HP, a broken mechnaic imo. Don´t dps to enhance your healing.

No, 25m paladin would not cast holy light to maybe grant holy power when they can use the same amount of time to cast HR and get guaranteed holy power. I highly doubt I would do it on 10m either. As for daybreak giving HP. The original daybreak HS not triggering a cooldown, so it doesn't seem that farfetched. They would have to take off the guaranteed proc after every holy radiance though if they ever went back to that. But I'm not the one asking for new HP generators, you are.

PS: and yes, MW tab-spamming SoM isn´t really brand new Information and doesn´t Change anything about the Chi creation by that spell. Your chances remain the same, if you spam one or tab spam

Get on a 90 monk and spam tap Soothing mists and see how much chi you get. It tics instantly so you will just keep spamming to get that tic for chi. Saying it isn't changing chi creation of the spell is false. It buffs the chi generation and healing speed of the spell by a significant margin. It is in nearly every Mistweaver guide for pve and pvp. It is a mechanic that should have been fixed a long time ago. So no that is not comparable to a long cast time spell maybe giving you HP.

[Deleted]

Get on a 90 monk and spam tap Soothing mists and see how much chi you get. It tics instantly so you will just keep spamming to get that tic for chi. Saying it isn't changing chi creation of the spell is false. It buffs the chi generation and healing speed of the spell by a significant margin. It is in nearly every Mistweaver guide for pve and pvp. It is a mechanic that should have been fixed a long time ago. So no that is not comparable to a long cast time spell maybe giving you HP.

Is there some confusion for tap and tab? It seems so but I'm not quite sure.

[Freia]

Is there some confusion for tap and tab? It seems so but I'm not quite sure.

I never called it tab. They might be thinking to tab and spam switch soothing mist among multiple targets, but I am talking about just constantly restarting the channel to spam that first tic over and over(some call it double-tapping). It is a pretty well known that it significantly ups the chi generation of the spell and increases its hps. Though the hps increase isn't a big deal the chi generation is.

[Deleted]

I never called it tab. They might be thinking to tab and spam switch soothing mist among multiple targets, but I am talking about just constantly restarting the channel to spam that first tic over and over(some call it double-tapping). It is a pretty well known that it significantly ups the chi generation of the spell and increases its hps. Though the hps increase isn't a big deal the chi generation is.

You didn't. The person you replied to did. That's what I meant.

[Freia]

You didn't. The person you replied to did. That's what I meant.

They were replying to me. They might not understand what I mean or as I assumed, they just mixed up and typed tab instead of tap.

[Medario]

But I'm not the one asking for new HP generators, you are.

I think it wouldn´t hurt to have further Options. Some People cam eup with judgement granting HP, so that´s why

Get on a 90 monk and spam tap Soothing mists and see how much chi you get. It tics instantly so you will just keep spamming to get that tic for chi. Saying it isn't changing chi creation of the spell is false. It buffs the chi generation and healing speed of the spell by a significant margin. It is in nearly every Mistweaver guide for pve and pvp. It is a mechanic that should have been fixed a long time ago. So no that is not comparable to a long cast time spell maybe giving you HP.

I am.And I don´t do it differently; Problem is with SooM that it ticks instantly, so you can apply a heal and possibly a Chi for 3k mana only. Then again th e heal itself is so low it wouldn´t be worth it.
Yes it does seem as if applying SooM for the split of a second and then Switch the target/reapply the spell and do the same grant slightly better chances than the 35% of the tooltip. personally I have casted about 100 SooM fully channeled and the same amount with constant switching and the difference, imo and based on my personal testing, was insignificant aka, so possibly an increase of 5%
But that MW discussion is off topic

[Freia]

I think it wouldn´t hurt to have further Options. Some People cam eup with judgement granting HP, so that´s why



I am.And I don´t do it differently; Problem is with SooM that it ticks instantly, so you can apply a heal and possibly a Chi for 3k mana only. Then again th e heal itself is so low it wouldn´t be worth it.
Yes it does seem as if applying SooM for the split of a second and then Switch the target and do the same grant slightly better chances than the 35% of the tooltip. personally I have casted about 100 SooM fully channeled and the same amount with constant switching and the difference, imo and based on my personal testing, was insignificant aka, so possibly an increase of 5%
But that MW discussion is off topic

Yea, as doc guessed, you are confused on what I am talking about. Tap...not tab. It does not require target switching and if you are using Soothing Mist as a Chi generator and not double-tapping it, you are doing it wrong. I only even brought it up in this thread to show using soothing mist as a comparison for having Holy Light give a chance at holy power are not comparable because in that time you cast holy light a monk would have 3-4 chi already by spam tapping soothing mists.

But more so holy light has the same cast time as holy radiance, so no one would cast holy light for a chance at holy power when they could just cast holy radiance for guaranteed holy power. At least not now that we are past the beginning of the expansion when mana was tighter.

[Medario]

Yea, as doc guessed, you are confused on what I am talking about. Tap...not tab. It does not require target switching and if you are using Soothing Mist as a Chi generator and not double-tapping it, you are doing it wrong. I only even brought it up in this thread to show using soothing mist as a comparison for having Holy Light give a chance at holy power are not comparable because in that time you cast holy light a monk would have 3-4 chi already by spam tapping soothing mists.

"Whilst its chi generating component is based on a probability it has been fixed so that the probability increases after each tick that doesn't generate chi. After a tick generates chi, this probability lowers back to its base." (Quote from the MW huide here on mmo, can go for other Blogs and guides too)

taP targeting does not significantly incrase the Chance to get chi over channeling or taB targeting. I´ve have read that it should or might; personaly as said I didnt expierence it. Either way, get on your monk and cast taP spamming a few dozen SoM: it does not proc on the first tick guaranteed.

To get back to the Holy Light Except ealy stages T14 the spell useage overly dropped to a bare Minimum, so depending on the spell use it´s truely not a good example

[Freia]

"Whilst its chi generating component is based on a probability it has been fixed so that the probability increases after each tick that doesn't generate chi. After a tick generates chi, this probability lowers back to its base." (Quote from the MW huide here on mmo, can go for other Blogs and guides too)

taP targeting does not significantly incrase the Chance to get chi over channeling or taB targeting. I´ve have read that it should or might; personaly as said I didnt expierence it. Either way, get on your monk and cast taP spamming a few dozen SoM: it does not proc on the first tick guaranteed.

To get back to the Holy Light Except ealy stages T14 the spell useage overly dropped to a bare Minimum, so depending on the spell use it´s truely not a good example

I am dropping it, you don't understand what I am referring to and there is no point explaining it further.

[Medario]

I am dropping it, you don't understand what I am referring to and there is no point explaining it further.

I actually think I fully understand what you mean and the differnce between tap and tab, but it doesn´tmatter; going fully OT anyway

[Simulacrum]

taP targeting does not significantly incrase the Chance to get chi over channeling or taB targeting. I´ve have read that it should or might; personaly as said I didnt expierence it. Either way, get on your monk and cast taP spamming a few dozen SoM: it does not proc on the first tick guaranteed.

You are correct in that it's not a 100% on the first tick anymore, but you will still gain much more chi by spamming the button because you will generate a new 'first' tick from your second cast right as the second tick from your first cast happens, doubling chi generation:

As you see, normal ticks in the first panel, and spamming the button in the second.

[mcbubble]

I agree 100% with the needed daybreak change.
What I do not like about it: The daybreak heal doesn't go to the beacon. Why? If you read beacon, it clearly states:
Your Holy Light will also heal the Beacon for 100% of the amount healed. Your Holy Radiance, Light of Dawn, Light's Hammer, and Holy Prism will heal for 15% of the amount healed. All other heals will heal for 50% of the amount healed.
Follow your own tooltip blizzard and correct this please.

Also, I'm finally starting to get a little irritated with the balancing while progressing on heroic lei shen.
Disc absorbs are SO strong that it really does impact other healers throughput. So they nerf our absorbs and don't even touch disc. It's so asinine that it's mind boggling. Don't even get me started on how OP Halo is for that fight.

[ryukushin]

I'v been practicing for a few hours on the PTR and I honestly don't know wtf there thinking, EF's that used to heal 103k are 53k now.Not to mention the reduction of EF's to use more spells was shit pointless, I'm not a haste healer cause of this mastery shit and everyone can override 2 second cast heals. I don't know what there doing cause they just made another Resto shamen.

[Lumineux]

Lol yeah currently right now on the PTR it looked like holy pallies are doing similar throughput as resto shamans (if not less), but since resto shammies have sooo many more CDs and utility, might as well bring a resto shammy. No reason to bring a holy pally since rets can devo all the same. Sad stuff.

[Deleted]

Well on the PTR atm you can abuse Selfless Healer+ Holy Shield(which u have as holy even though its meant to be prot only), and do half decent. But yea, if you're trying to heal normally its just cringe worthy. I just don't understand how we got into the situation for Priests+Monks+Druids to be so far ahead and yet still we're the ones getting nerfs.

[Lumineux]

Well on the PTR atm you can abuse Selfless Healer+ Holy Shield(which u have as holy even though its meant to be prot only), and do half decent. But yea, if you're trying to heal normally its just cringe worthy. I just don't understand how we got into the situation for Priests+Monks+Druids to be so far ahead and yet still we're the ones getting nerfs.

Yeah it's pretty perplexing that holy pallies are getting the nerfs but we're not even high ranking on the meters (on live or on ptr), when in contrast Priests/Druids/Monks are doing insane HPS and getting buffs. It's like blizzard doesn't even bother to look at the numbers, let alone play the game.

[Pasture]

Yeah it's pretty perplexing that holy pallies are getting the nerfs but we're not even high ranking on the meters (on live or on ptr), when in contrast Priests/Druids/Monks are doing insane HPS and getting buffs. It's like blizzard doesn't even bother to look at the numbers, let alone play the game.

A nerf for the way EF interacts with mastery has been on the cards since 5.2 (when we were very strong). Unfortunately the change has been made at a time we're actually pretty weak. The change is for gameplay purposes (the way we exploit the mastery shields on EF was never intended) rather than hps reasons.

The change isn't a problem if they give us a niche that counteracts what we lose. If they don't want us to be pre-shielders I'd like them to take us down the 'burst heal' route. Our sustained healing is pretty weak so I'd like to see it offset by a better burst heal toolkit. Our strength should be dealing with big bursts of damage fast. Holy Prism and LoD are my basis. Increase the Holy Prism range (and make it not target damned pets) and increase the power of LoD. Make daybreak a smart heal without range requirements for more healing but on fewer targets. Do something with SH to give it some kind of burst heal effect (judgement itself could heal).

The idea would be that disc is best at pre-empting damage, holy priests, druids and monks would be the best constant damage healers with massive cooldowns and paladins would be the best burst healers, building up HP and Daybreak and unleashing LoD, Prism and Daybreak to heal the damage first. I really think that would be the perfect niche for us, especially combined with a move back to a 4 second Holy Shock.

---------- Post added 2013-06-24 at 08:09 PM ----------

- 4 second HS baseline

Might not solve our hps problems but my number 1 on the wish list for solving our fun problem. Paladin just played better with a 4 second Holy Shock. It felt more fun. I'm used to 6 seconds now but I still feel throttled. 4 second Holy Shock would be a huge step in the right direction, particularly to push us toward a 'burst healer'.

GOAK is now a 3 minute Cooldown.

Just seems like a sensible change. There is nothing about GotAK that makes it worthy of a 5 minute cooldown.

Devotion Aura now mitigates all types of damage.

This, or have the ability just do something different in addition so it would also be used as a half cooldown on physical damage.

Divine light base and coefficient increased by 75%

Those values seem big but certainly it needs to hit harder. IMO is should hit slightly harder than Holy Radiance does in total. They cost the same mana but HR has the benefit of stabilising everyone. DL should have the burst heal benefit on a single target.