[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[Deleted]

What are you talking about? Basically mastery is just as reactive as it is proactive; that is to say, if I cast a 100k heal + 40k absorb reactively, I am casting a 140k reactive heal. So your suggestion would not "improve reactive healing" as you claim.

I've not suggested any figures so I'm not entirely sure why you're assuming this, this obviously wouldn't be the case.

The only thing it would do is take away our proactive ability which in reality is what you want all along, that fact is obvious. At least don't lie about it.

My suggestion was purely in response to people saying they'd stack spirit and spam HR anyway which is obviously not fun for anyone, it would be a nerf to proactive shielding but a buff to effective healing overall.

I can agree that healing is too proactive now, but the reason is not paladin mastery. It is Discipline priest Atonement smart heal filler proc'cing Divine Aegis (and contributing an absolutely free non-trivial amount of DPS also) and Spirit Shell on a 1 minute, soon to be ~40 second cooldown where up to 1/2 of all damage is being 100% proactively mitigated.

That is the sole driver of the "arms race" that you see in all the heal specs right now, and that arms race isn't going to go away so long as Disc goes without a (heavy) nerf. For instance the arms race is why Paladins despite a 17% mastery scaling nerf are responding by stacking even more mastery.

The only thing that will change, so long as Blizzard keeps screwing around with the other classes while leaving Disc untouched, are the "winners" and the "losers" of the arms race (the "winner" of course being who can keep up with the Discs), and I guess you like to see everyone but the monks in the "loser" category.

If you actually wanted this arms race to disappear (as I do), Disc forums are that way -->

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I disagree, shields are too strong but preparation is a good thing that encourages learning encounters and rewards good play. Unfortunately shields are so strong now that the latter isn't rewarded because any given amount of preparation can't prepare you for no damage getting past shields. I agree discipline is the main culprit for this, my suggestions for the past few pages have purely been wanting to solve HR overheal spam which I don't think would be fun at all.

Capping out on Holy Power is a complete fucking waste of resources, the only reason you would do it is if your HP finishers were so pitiful that even your generators were better. Which makes you wonder why the fuck they are there in the first place.

I'm not suggesting you keep constantly at 5 holy power until damage comes, I'm suggesting it would be banked it in time for damage so you can get out a wave of instants.

[nightfalls]

It's already been done once in 5.3 without problems...

"Hey, we nerfed you once and you aren't shit. So good reason to triple nerf you!" ... seriously...?

[Deleted]

Bullshit.

"Proactive preparation" is ensuring your renewing mists are up on your targets. It's making sure your Mushrooms are are being stacked up with your Rejuvs over enough time.

Sitting on 4 chi spamming more Renewing Mist and taking 3 globals to put the Mushrooms down 2 seconds before massive raid AoE does not proactive healing make.

I'm not sure what your point is here other than you don't consider getting resource capped before damage hits as preparation which is just kind of absurd from the get-go.

[nightfalls]

I disagree, shields are too strong but preparation is a good thing that encourages learning encounters and rewards good play. Unfortunately shields are so strong now that the latter isn't rewarded because any given amount of preparation can't prepare you for no damage getting past shields. I agree discipline is the main culprit for this, my suggestions for the past few pages have purely been wanting to solve HR overheal spam which I don't think would be fun at all.

I'm sorry but until Discipline is gutted, HR overheal spam will not be solved without making us shit. Again I highly doubt most people like a high-overheal absorb-based healing playstyle, but it's the only thing that works in the presence of a heal comp that's completely 100% proactive. It's do that or just contribute nothing at all.

I'm not suggesting you keep constantly at 5 holy power until damage comes, I'm suggesting it would be banked it in time for damage so you can get out a wave of instants.

"Wave" meaning at most 2. Nice "wave."

I'm not sure what your point is here other than you don't consider getting resource capped before damage hits as preparation which is just kind of absurd from the get-go.

That is a joke. Again I gave examples of actual proactive healing, not "oh herp derp if you have 4 chi, you can uplift twice"

[Cairhiin]

I'm not suggesting you keep constantly at 5 holy power until damage comes, I'm suggesting it would be banked it in time for damage so you can get out a wave of instants.

Wave of instants? Are you for real? Do you know how much 2 LoDs heal for? And even then, banking HoPo is a terrible idea, always. It's a waste of resources and mana. Your idea is terrible.

[Linnea]

I've not suggested any figures so I'm not entirely sure why you're assuming this, this obviously wouldn't be the case.

Then what would the case be? Because your "buff reactive healing and nerf mastery scaling" doesn't make much sense, at all. As voidspark put it, "The only thing it would do is take away our proactive ability.", it wont buff reactive healing.

[Deleted]

Wave of instants? Are you for real? Do you know how much 2 LoDs heal for? And even then, banking HoPo is a terrible idea, always. It's a waste of resources and mana. Your idea is terrible.

"in case you didn't notice the discussion has been under the idea that mastery has been nerfed and initial healing has been significantly buffed"

[Cairhiin]

"in case you didn't notice the discussion has been under the idea that mastery has been nerfed and initial healing has been significantly buffed"

That changes nothing. You don't sit on HoPo. It's a waste of mana, resources, and healing. Light of Dawn heals only 6 people, really gonna be awesome that 5 Holy Power you just banked for a minute. You realize right that our spells cost so much mana because we are balanced around spending Holy Power on free heals, that kinda doesn't really work with your banking Holy Power.

[Deleted]

Then what would the case be? Because your "buff reactive healing and nerf mastery scaling" doesn't make much sense, at all. As voidspark put it, "The only thing it would do is take away our proactive ability.", it wont buff reactive healing.

No it wouldn't, if you nerf mastery and buff initial healing to a point where shield values would be similar as to how they are now (perhaps slightly less) and the initial heal was a lot more potent you would be far better equipped to deal with damage than stacking spirit and mashing HR. Shields would still be more or less as strong as they are on the PTR now but your actual healing done by spells would be increased.

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That changes nothing. You don't sit on HoPo. It's a waste of mana, resources, and healing.

Not long term obviously, but if you honestly go into a phase completely unprepared with none of your secondary resource that's extremely bad play under these proposed changes.

[Freia]

My suggestion was purely in response to people saying they'd stack spirit and spam HR anyway which is obviously not fun for anyone, it would be a nerf to proactive shielding but a buff to effective healing overall.

Sitting and waiting for damage bursts isn't fun either. Spot heals are taken care of by the disc priest and other smart heals.

I'm not suggesting you keep constantly at 5 holy power until damage comes, I'm suggesting it would be banked it in time for damage so you can get out a wave of instants.

That "wave of instants" from 5 holy power equals 2.


Four reactive healers btw? No there isn't not even close. Shaman are pretty much it and it definitely has hurt them.

[nightfalls]

No it wouldn't, if you nerf mastery and buff initial healing to a point where shield values would be similar as to how they are now (perhaps slightly less) and the initial heal was a lot more potent you would be far better equipped to deal with damage than stacking spirit and mashing HR. Shields would still be more or less as strong as they are on the PTR now but your actual healing done by spells would be increased.

I'm sorry if you haven't understood my main point, but basically your entire discussion is moot. As is with the current heal situation, people could really give fuck all about purely reactive heals. Even if you decided to buff them to a point of craziness (where each LoD hits like a mini-revival), it's not a fun play style.

It doesn't matter what you scale - int, crit, mastery, as is, people will be seeking to maximize their absorb values. If 10 int gave a bigger shields than 20 mastery, so be it, stack int. Fact is when you're a class that is based around ~60% overhealing (not due to paladin but due to priest mechanics), you could give fuck all how large your direct heals are, you just care about the low-overheal absorb attached.


Again I want this playstyle gone as much as most people, but again without the gutting of Disc Atonement + SS getting a much longer cooldown, and changes to Divine Aegis, Disc and Paladin mastery, which will probably be 6.0 at the earliest, there's absolutely no point to this discussion.

Four reactive healers btw? No there isn't not even close. Shaman are pretty much it and it definitely has hurt them.

^^ words of wisdom.

[Cairhiin]

Not long term obviously, but if you honestly go into a phase completely unprepared with none of your secondary resource that's extremely bad play under these proposed changes.

So you are saying that 2 LoDs that heals 2x6 people, in a 25 man raid is gonna be worth sitting on HoPo. Yeah, no. Sorry, not under any circumstance. You just want our Mastery nerfed to the point it becomes useless and we are better of stacking haste again? Cause that's what I'm reading between the lines, it's mostly "My renewing mist is overhealing cause of Paladins mastery shields, so nerf their mastery, and give them reactive healing."

Four reactive healers btw? No there isn't not even close. Shaman are pretty much it and it definitely has hurt them.

So true.

[Deleted]

I'm sorry but until Discipline is gutted, HR overheal spam will not be solved without making us shit. Again I highly doubt most people like a high-overheal absorb-based healing playstyle, but it's the only thing that works in the presence of a heal comp that's completely 100% proactive. It's do that or just contribute nothing at all.

4 other specs at the minute work under this pretense. I don't see the availability of that playstyle decision to be a bad thing though, I just wouldn't want it to replace EF spam as the defacto specialization choice.

"Wave" meaning at most 2. Nice "wave."

Again numbers haven't been discussed at all (intentionally) but my intention of saying "significantly buffed" would be that you imagine 2 light of dawns to do competitive healing.

That is a joke. Again I gave examples of actual proactive healing, not "oh herp derp if you have 4 chi, you can uplift twice"

Proactive healing and preperation are two different things, you gave mushrooms as an example which pretty much serve the same function of stacking a resource and then capitalizing on it after damage.

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So you are saying that 2 LoDs that heals 2x6 people, in a 25 man raid is gonna be worth sitting on HoPo. Yeah, no. Sorry, not under any circumstance. You just want our Mastery nerfed to the point it becomes useless and we are better of stacking haste again? Cause that's what I'm reading between the lines, it's mostly "My renewing mist is overhealing cause of Paladins mastery shields, so nerf their mastery, and give them reactive healing."

How many times do I need to reiterate this entire discussion is based under the assumption that it would be?

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Four reactive healers btw? No there isn't not even close. Shaman are pretty much it and it definitely has hurt them.

Uh yeah, four healers at the minute heal damage after it's been done. Not arguing semantics. Also, whether you find it fun or not is obviously opinion but with the method of change suggested HR spam certainly wouldn't be hurt, it just wouldn't be the best option.

[nightfalls]

Again numbers haven't been discussed at all (intentionally) but my intention of saying "significantly buffed" would be that you imagine 2 light of dawns to do competitive healing.

What's ironic is that my proposed 6.0 changes (obviously more would be thought about in Beta and after seeing Blizzard's intentions and how 5.4 plays out) to Mastery that I thought of earlier would actually accomplish your effect to a degree.

Among other things, SS would have to have a 2-3 minute cooldown. Disc mastery, Divine Aegis, and toolkit would be reworked completely. Then for paladins, IH would be a flat % instead of the mastery, just a passive (say, 25%). Mastery would be reworked to increase the power of Holy Power finishers.


Obviously this would not be anywhere near good in 5.4. It's a bit late in the expansion to make drastic healing toolkit changes, especially ones that in the current state of healing would amount to a massive nerf disguised as a "change."

[Cairhiin]

And we have been telling you over and over that it never will. Mana cost balanced around the use of HoPo restricts banking HoPo by definition, and that is just a small part of it, it would require an entire redesign of our heals.

Uh yeah, four healers at the minute heal damage after it's been done. Not arguing semantics.

Yeah right, with instants, hots and smart heals.

[Deleted]

And we have been telling you over and over that it never will. Mana cost balanced around the use of HoPo restricts banking HoPo by definition, and that is just a small part of it, but I'm done with this discussion, it's pretty clear you only want to see Holy Paladins even more nerfed and dumbed down than we already are.

I'm sorry you feel that way but all I did was proposed a solution to HR spam that has literally no ill effect apart from containing the words "nerf mastery" in the same sentence.

[nightfalls]

Uh yeah, four healers at the minute heal damage after it's been done. Not arguing semantics. Also, whether you find it fun or not is obviously opinion but with the method of change suggested HR spam certainly wouldn't be hurt, it just wouldn't be the best option.

Here's something for Semantics. All healers "heal damage after it is done"

Under your change, 3 would have set up the healing for the upcoming damage long before the damage is dealt, either by stacking an absorb, stacking a mushroom (which will instantly explode, the only difference being the humans 0.5 second reaction time instead the server's 0.05 second reaction time), or spreading Renewing Mists ready to be instantly Uplifted, again at 0.5 second reaction time instead of 0.05 seconds.

We would be fumbling around with capped resources doing fuck all except spam generators (since as you said we would "wait"). We would then have a fixed heal ready to go off, which is either going to be overpowered - on par with the healing the others worked so hard to build up - or more likely, shit. As is now.

[Deleted]

What's ironic is that my proposed 6.0 changes (obviously more would be thought about in Beta and after seeing Blizzard's intentions and how 5.4 plays out) to Mastery that I thought of earlier would actually accomplish your effect to a degree.

Among other things, SS would have to have a 2-3 minute cooldown. Disc mastery, Divine Aegis, and toolkit would be reworked completely. Then for paladins, IH would be a flat % instead of the mastery, just a passive (say, 25%). Mastery would be reworked to increase the power of Holy Power finishers.


Obviously this would not be anywhere near good in 5.4. It's a bit late in the expansion to make drastic healing toolkit changes, especially ones that in the current state of healing would amount to a massive nerf disguised as a "change."

Yeah that would definitely be interesting, it's probably a more engaging way to go around the problem but you're definitely right saying it won't happen mid expansion.

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We would be fumbling around with capped resources doing fuck all except spam generators (since as you said we would "wait"). We would then have a fixed heal ready to go off, which is either going to be overpowered - on par with the healing the others worked so hard to build up - or more likely, shit. As is now.

I'd imagine it would be closer to dumping HoPo on EF as is now until a suitable time period where you can get 5 HoPo ready just as the damage is about to hit. You'd still spend holy power, it's just you would be rewarded for being able to build it up in good time for incoming damage.

[Freia]

Uh yeah, four healers at the minute heal damage after it's been done. Not arguing semantics. Also, whether you find it fun or not is obviously opinion but with the method of change suggested HR spam certainly wouldn't be hurt, it just wouldn't be the best option.

Nope. You aren't even arguing reactive vs. proactive healing at this point. You are arguing absorbs vs actual heals. Protip: If you are using a HoT on cooldown to blanket as much of the raid as possible, you aren't a reactive or triage healer anymore.

[Cairhiin]

I'd imagine it would be closer to dumping HoPo on EF as is now until a suitable time period where you can get 5 HoPo ready just as the damage is about to hit. You'd still spend holy power, it's just you would be rewarded for being able to build it up in good time for incoming damage.

That would mean all our heals need to be made cheaper. We also would need extra heals added to our toolkit. Eternal Flame would probably have to be made baseline, and cost mana instead of Holy Power, and get a short cooldown of sorts (4-6 sec), so you can't spam. Furthermore if you would make finishers so powerful they actually do something and are worth banking for you risk the following scenario:

Constant raid damage, like say many of the new SoO fights, you'd just build up HoPo and spam Light of Dawn doing massive instant AoE healing, as you yourself said it needs to be massively buffed. You simply can't balance around damage spikes and risk making said heal totally overpowered. LoD will never heal for a large amount, and as a result it won't be worth banking HoPo for.

Another problem with LoD is the 6 player cap, which is a problem in 10 vs 25.