[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[nightfalls]

So couple of thoughts after mulling these changes a bit more: (will be putting these on official forums if they are revised)

1) Selfless Healer seems actually in a good place right now, but I do see it more of a PvP talent. I wish EF and SS both had more attractive reasons to use for PvE than they currently do. If EF had its Mastery back (even 50%), it would have a good place in raids with SH still being dominant in PvP. SS could use a makeover. As is, I'm not sure if SH + LoD spam will be better than gutted EF but if so, that's boring. Judge could use some extra damage for us baseline, it's not like our damage in both PvE and PvP is super-good right now especially compared to priest/monk/druid. Maybe make it more like HoW's damage for Holy?

2) Mana: I think our mana is pretty good on its own right now. The one thing I agree with Aladya on is that Disc mana is overpowered especially with the Mindbender buff. I get that Mindbender is supposed to be more competitive with PW:Solace and that's why they buffed it. What I don't get is where their adjustments are. Rapture itself is a culprit: Originally it was meant to be like Beacon/HW:S/Lifebloom in that it made PW:S a cheap "tank heal" and an expensive "raid heal." Now the effect is that it's an OP mana regen tool, and Disc mana really needs to see some actual stress. Perhaps nerf Atonement's mana usage significantly? (Disc forum stuff). But all things aside, I think paladin mana isn't bad, just more people need to be like us.

3) Sanctity of Battle: Not a bad change and it should help a lot with our HP generation as well as making Haste slightly more attractive but not OP in PvP (where we have less haste to go around, anyway). Thinking this out, this change alone is good.

4) Guardian of Ancient Kings: Need more clarification on how this works, blue post will be nice. Basically I'm not sure if it's 100% copied split among everyone, if it's 10% TO everyone, if the latter then what the target cap is (I'm assuming 6?), whether the target cap will be raised for 25 versus 10 (it better) if it exists, etc.

5) Divine Plea Glyph I'm hoping will be further reworked, but even if it were changed to what I think it should be (5 second cast for 50% extra mana) I still can't see the glyph being worth it, so I think it should be tossed out altogether.

6) Overall: I think our niche of half proactive, half reactive, "can do everything" hopefully should still be here, but again, we're still only just "half proactive" so long as Disc goes unchecked. It's really annoying seeing them get no changes considering that their current toolkit is basically fucking with how every other healer works, IMO that needed to go long fucking before EF's change. Sad that they prioritized the latter rather than the former.


P.S: Everyone should keep in mind that while we perhaps are not getting significantly nerfed, when it comes to overall healing balance/state all other healers are being significantly buffed.

[Kyuuseishu]

But on the subject of DP, we don't even know what spirit levels we will be running in 5.4. Yes through maths from this tier you can see that it is worse on fights were you spend a lot of time in melee, and better on those weere you don't get much time at all. Yet considering heroic testing hasn't started we don't even know how much time we will be able to spend in melee range to get a comparison of the maths. So arguing about it is quite pointless until testing begins and we can get some real time results rather than just arguing over theory.

[Cybnext]

4) Guardian of Ancient Kings: Need more clarification on how this works, blue post will be nice. Basically I'm not sure if it's 100% copied split among everyone, if it's 10% TO everyone, if the latter then what the target cap is (I'm assuming 6?), whether the target cap will be raised for 25 versus 10 (it better) if it exists, etc.

So far from what I've been able to see is it will be 10% to everyone in range. I was testing over a remote connection so my testing was limited.

[Pasture]

So far from what I've been able to see is it will be 10% to everyone in range. I was testing over a remote connection so my testing was limited.

Are you able to test how it interacts with LoD and HR? Is it 10% of every individual bit of an AoE heal?

EDIT: What sort of cooldown are people looking at for Holy Shock with these changes. And what cooldown if they reforge and gem for haste rather than mastery? Interested to see whether a heavy haste build with Selfless Healer will be in anyway viable. Or even a haste EF build for more HP generation for hot fights.

[Kyuuseishu]

Are you able to test how it interacts with LoD and HR? Is it 10% of every individual bit of an AoE heal?

EDIT: What sort of cooldown are people looking at for Holy Shock with these changes. And what cooldown if they reforge and gem for haste rather than mastery? Interested to see whether a heavy haste build with Selfless Healer will be in anyway viable.

My character was copied over some time ago (even with the 553 gear its only 537) using my current gemming method I use on live (yellows pure haste, I stick to spirit gems in the blues for now), sitting around 10k haste my holy shock is down to 4.85sec CD.

[Cybnext]

Are you able to test how it interacts with LoD and HR? Is it 10% of every individual bit of an AoE heal?

EDIT: What sort of cooldown are people looking at for Holy Shock with these changes. And what cooldown if they reforge and gem for haste rather than mastery? Interested to see whether a heavy haste build with Selfless Healer will be in anyway viable. Or even a haste EF build for more HP generation for hot fights.

I could probably find a group (to test LoD), but here is a screenshot of the combat log (was hitting myself and 2 other people).



After looking at it more, it looks like it's 100%, then 10% splash.

[Tiberria]

You are obviously taking my comment out of context, and not considering the post I was replying to; in which I was simply correcting his math on the basis that not every paladin runs with obscene amounts of mana. You also, apparently didn't finish reading my post as I also stated that "Comparing Divine Plea and Rapture was ridiculous."

As well, the mana cost of our spells are already balanced around our HoPo gains, which are in no way "free" as it takes mana to earn HoPo and Paladins cast HR often to gain HoPo, in which that mana is spent purely as overheal.

Next time, try forming a coherent argument after taking the time to read the post.

Paladin mana costs are in no way fully balanced around the level of output that comes from HP based free healing. The mana costs are balanced around the fact that Beacon of Light essentially means that your heals are 25%-100% more effective. Beacon is the reason paladin spell costs are "taxed". Yes, they obviously are not taxed around getting the full value of the Beacon heal, because overheal is always high.

However, for comparison's sake.

Holy Light - 12.6% of base mana
Healing Wave - 9.9% of base mana

So, Holy Light is about 21% more expensive. However, that is more than compensated by the fact that you get 100% more healing through Beacon Transfer.

Holy Power based heals are fully a component of Paladin regen, and are basically the Paladin replacement for Rapture, Water Shield/Resurgence, Omen of Clarity, etc.

[Pasture]

I could probably find a group (to test LoD), but here is a screenshot of the combat log (was hitting myself and 2 other people).



After looking at it more, it looks like it's 100%, then 10% splash.

Looks very strong for stacked moments. But even for non-stacked moments it is a buff since it lasts 15 seconds rather than 5 casts and will double the strength of LoD. For fights with no stacked phase it could be combined with Holy Avenger and HS / LoD for some very strong output, particularly with a haste build for a much lower cooldown HS.

Maybe I'm getting a little overexcited for haste (I'm just sick of overhealing for mastery shields) but with mastery not affecting EF, Beacon or our improved Guardian, and haste scaling with HS and SH, haste has got to be looking more viable. Particularly on fights that would otherwise rely on us rolling shields with EF.

[Tiberria]

So couple of thoughts after mulling these changes a bit more: (will be putting these on official forums if they are revised)

1) Selfless Healer seems actually in a good place right now, but I do see it more of a PvP talent. I wish EF and SS both had more attractive reasons to use for PvE than they currently do. If EF had its Mastery back (even 50%), it would have a good place in raids with SH still being dominant in PvP. SS could use a makeover. As is, I'm not sure if SH + LoD spam will be better than gutted EF but if so, that's boring. Judge could use some extra damage for us baseline, it's not like our damage in both PvE and PvP is super-good right now especially compared to priest/monk/druid. Maybe make it more like HoW's damage for Holy?

2) Mana: I think our mana is pretty good on its own right now. The one thing I agree with Aladya on is that Disc mana is overpowered especially with the Mindbender buff. I get that Mindbender is supposed to be more competitive with PW:Solace and that's why they buffed it. What I don't get is where their adjustments are. Rapture itself is a culprit: Originally it was meant to be like Beacon/HW:S/Lifebloom in that it made PW:S a cheap "tank heal" and an expensive "raid heal." Now the effect is that it's an OP mana regen tool, and Disc mana really needs to see some actual stress. Perhaps nerf Atonement's mana usage significantly? (Disc forum stuff). But all things aside, I think paladin mana isn't bad, just more people need to be like us.

3) Sanctity of Battle: Not a bad change and it should help a lot with our HP generation as well as making Haste slightly more attractive but not OP in PvP (where we have less haste to go around, anyway). Thinking this out, this change alone is good.

4) Guardian of Ancient Kings: Need more clarification on how this works, blue post will be nice. Basically I'm not sure if it's 100% copied split among everyone, if it's 10% TO everyone, if the latter then what the target cap is (I'm assuming 6?), whether the target cap will be raised for 25 versus 10 (it better) if it exists, etc.

5) Divine Plea Glyph I'm hoping will be further reworked, but even if it were changed to what I think it should be (5 second cast for 50% extra mana) I still can't see the glyph being worth it, so I think it should be tossed out altogether.

6) Overall: I think our niche of half proactive, half reactive, "can do everything" hopefully should still be here, but again, we're still only just "half proactive" so long as Disc goes unchecked. It's really annoying seeing them get no changes considering that their current toolkit is basically fucking with how every other healer works, IMO that needed to go long fucking before EF's change. Sad that they prioritized the latter rather than the former.


P.S: Everyone should keep in mind that while we perhaps are not getting significantly nerfed, when it comes to overall healing balance/state all other healers are being significantly buffed.

Keep in mind with the Mindbender buff that I think that PW: Solace is actually significantly more regen than Mindbender for Disc Priests in almost all reasonable situations. Most Disc Priests are probably taking Solace, so the buff isn't really as much a buff as it is balancing the value of the two talents out.

I don't agree that "all other healers are being significantly buffed". Druids and Shaman are the only healers being significantly buffed. Druids were in a terrible place for most of this expansion until 5.2, and Shaman have been in a terrible place most of the last 2 expansions. What Priest (either spec) and Monk changes are you seeing that makes you think they are getting huge buffs?

[Dubalicious]

P.S: Everyone should keep in mind that while we perhaps are not getting significantly nerfed, when it comes to overall healing balance/state all other healers are being significantly buffed.

- I'm not convinced we aren't STILL "significantly nerfed"
- The sanctity of battle change is getting a lot of hype, but I personally feel it's a very mediocre change. Haste is a TERRIBLE stat, and I'm not convinced this will change that.
- If "selfless healer" becomes the new 'required' talent, the spec will be very clunky imo. If it isn't 'required' then we are left with a significantly nerfed tier 45 of talents.

There is one AWESOME thing about these changes - I actually feel motivated to test something that may resemble the "end product".

[mcbubble]

Paladin mana costs are in no way fully balanced around the level of output that comes from HP based free healing. The mana costs are balanced around the fact that Beacon of Light essentially means that your heals are 25%-100% more effective. Beacon is the reason paladin spell costs are "taxed". Yes, they obviously are not taxed around getting the full value of the Beacon heal, because overheal is always high.

However, for comparison's sake.

Holy Light - 12.6% of base mana
Healing Wave - 9.9% of base mana

So, Holy Light is about 21% more expensive. However, that is more than compensated by the fact that you get 100% more healing through Beacon Transfer.

Holy Power based heals are fully a component of Paladin regen, and are basically the Paladin replacement for Rapture, Water Shield/Resurgence, Omen of Clarity, etc.

Shamans have Conductivity and Echo of the Elements that have very similar effects...just sayin

[Lumineux]

Been playing around with a haste build and SH on the ptr, it's a pretty fun playstyle and I look forward to testing it in raids.

[xiloclipse]

After reading this thread I decided it was worth being able to post. I really question if the guys in here saying everything is OK on PTR actually raid at a HM level...

[reef]

i would love for haste to make a comeback. i haven't played my palli since mop came out. the changes being made so far are pretty nice. maybe i'll find myself playing her again.

[Deleted]

The new legendary proc may change this whole debate. If it procs as much as the meta gem procs... http://ptr.wowdb.com/spells/146199-spirit-of-chi-ji.

We may just end up spamming Divine Lights into the tank half of the time - lots of free Holy Power (depending on mana I suppose or we'd put beacon elsewhere), overhealing gives mastery shield from big hits on tank, overhealing splashes onto melee... everyone wins! Of course it'd be even better in fights where multiple tanks are tanking at once due to beacon too.

It will almost never be worth using single target heals. Once HR is hitting 4 targets it does more (over)healing, always generates holy power and transfers 15% to the beacon. Maybe in 10 man it will be better to use DL/FoL but never in 25 man.

On the subject of mana regeneration the last few pages, some of you really need to think things through again. Yes our mana regen is fine, however we are forced to run with a lot more spirit than other classes. Take for example monks, they run with ~7k spirit, we run with ~17k (on progress), that means we will have to use atleast 10k more stats on our mana regen than monks. In the end that also means we scale a lot worse, if we had 10k extra crit, mastery or haste it would greatly increase the value of the other stats. 10k spirit on the other hand does fuck all to make the other stats better except for the fact that we dont go oom after 20 casts.

[nightfalls]

On the subject of mana regeneration the last few pages, some of you really need to think things through again. Yes our mana regen is fine, however we are forced to run with a lot more spirit than other classes. Take for example monks, they run with ~7k spirit, we run with ~17k (on progress), that means we will have to use atleast 10k more stats on our mana regen than monks. In the end that also means we scale a lot worse, if we had 10k extra crit, mastery or haste it would greatly increase the value of the other stats. 10k spirit on the other hand does fuck all to make the other stats better except for the fact that we dont go oom after 20 casts.

I've thought things through, I think our mana regen is fine, I think other classes, specifically Disc and Monk, need nerfs; in the latter case I think they need massive nerfs. Running with Cataclysm-levels of Spirit is just insane.

For starters take out the double mana tea on Crit, we can go from there.

[Deleted]

Paladin mana costs are in no way fully balanced around the level of output that comes from HP based free healing. The mana costs are balanced around the fact that Beacon of Light essentially means that your heals are 25%-100% more effective. Beacon is the reason paladin spell costs are "taxed". Yes, they obviously are not taxed around getting the full value of the Beacon heal, because overheal is always high.

1. The mana cost is balanced arround holy power, not beacon.
2. Those numbers are so far from the truth its unreal. Beacon does not transfer mastery (30% of every heal), beacon only transfers 15% from HR and 50% from EF and no one uses HL anymore.

[nightfalls]

1. The mana cost is balanced arround holy power, not beacon.
2. Those numbers are so far from the truth its unreal. Beacon does not transfer mastery (30% of every heal), beacon only transfers 15% from HR and 50% from EF and no one uses HL anymore.

Can we just immediately dismiss any notion of "well yours is balanced around this, and mine around this." Yes, each class has mana return mechanics. Each class also has a cheap 1-target only heal, whether it be Beacon, Lifebloom, Earth Shield, or whatever. Some classes also have smart heals attached to everything they do.

Point is: If you really want a gander at where mana lies, look at how much spirit heal classes typically have to run with. Some classes do ~13k, some do 10k, some get away with less than 6k. Look no further than there.

[Peachpies]

Paladin mana costs are in no way fully balanced around the level of output that comes from HP based free healing. The mana costs are balanced around the fact that Beacon of Light essentially means that your heals are 25%-100% more effective. Beacon is the reason paladin spell costs are "taxed". Yes, they obviously are not taxed around getting the full value of the Beacon heal, because overheal is always high.

However, for comparison's sake.

Holy Light - 12.6% of base mana
Healing Wave - 9.9% of base mana

So, Holy Light is about 21% more expensive. However, that is more than compensated by the fact that you get 100% more healing through Beacon Transfer.

Holy Power based heals are fully a component of Paladin regen, and are basically the Paladin replacement for Rapture, Water Shield/Resurgence, Omen of Clarity, etc.

beacon of light is 5-10% of healing so please stop spouting this garbage about 100% more healing effectiveness.

[Deleted]

What some people who recently posted are seeming to forget is that while holy paladin will admitedly, be better off mana wise next patch due to increased spirit on gear, that won't be even close to the fact monks and discs will only have more regen to reforge out of in greater numbers for more throughput. While most of you give the SoI change the "it was a dumb idea anyway wtf lol" don't any of you have annoyance that DP is the only way to return mana? all other classes i can think off the top of my head have multiple ways, as previously posted. The fact our heals are centered around a free resource disregards the fact that said finisher moves (currently) are lacking. They'l be buffed sure, but whos gonna be able to put off a 100% effective healing EF when you have some monk smart-cast chi wave sniping, or disc priest atonementing the crap out of everybody