[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[nightfalls]

I really hope they are removing the cooldown trinket for good. Not only is it impossible to fairly balance that across healing specs (some specs just have better cooldowns than others), putting major raid cooldowns on shorter cooldowns would further trivialize healing and allow raids to run progression fights with fewer healers.

Agreed. Also, I'm not a fan of "god mode" trinkets where either having it makes you OP, or you're balanced around it so not having it makes you bad. Obviously all gear is an upgrade, but that trinket would be borderline mandatory.

[Hypasonic]

I literally have no idea why they even made these trinkets in the first place, it's such a dumb concept. They basically make OP classes/abilities even more OP. It's not even comparable to say a ret needing feather or a WW needing origination to be able to compete....why they design items that favour certain classes/specs SO MUCH is beyond me.

[Isheria]

Well they just changed the caster trinket from a proc to passive amplification with int so you can now rock on double amplification trinkets and be even more overpowered than before.

[xiloclipse]

I am a little confused about why they were introduced, and how they've influenced tuning to this point. I would think that devs would have to tune around this trinket almost completely (as well as other classes, and other trinkets). However, when the trinket is removed, do they magically re-tune everything, or just leave it a hot mess? Not that I think we're on the losing end of this, as it looks like they really didn't tune to it (maybe idk). I'm not sure what the mp5 of knocking plea down would have been, but it would be an effective 30% buff. Certainly the priest version looked absurd. On my ret paladin AV was almost down to 1.5 minutes, though the non-heal class trinkets still look to be intact. I also found it interesting that a number of the procs for different role trinkets looked to be ICDs.

Also I noticed they changed the stats/gem sockets on all of the tier gear (before they were exactly the same as t15). Although I find it unlikely that we will see t16 have 4 items with the exact same secondary stats (mastery/spi), I find it odd that this represents a change from their original t15 clone gear that simply had t16 stat bonuses.

Regardless, I'm more concerned about the fact that we're still hurting really hard. Sacred Shield seemed like complete garbage in my LFR testing, though obviously I have to question how accurate it is with scaled down gear, it looks like trash atm. Also not sure how the original "holy paladins shouldn't cast hots like resto druids" EF nerf logic fits a talent that requires you to religiously cast an absorb hot on CD.

[Deleted]

Now before i say the following. Moderators this is in no way intended to derail the thread. I found the Healing Rain conversation amusing and informative. But the fact that you guys where guessing how many targets where getting hit was somewhat confusing to me since it's quite easy to look up.
All you do is open the low browser and make a new Query(remove default one) for a Heal with a source=Lamerok and spell=Healing Rain. It can't show every cast unless you zoom in on the fight first and go per section. Well if the WoL people wanted to you could probably see every heal tick but it's limited because it would be a lot of megabytes worth of text if there is no limit and you run the show all query. (basicly the log that was upload gets sent back in a cleaner/more readable format.)
Or you can use the expression editor to get the same results with a couple of pages of results.

But on average Healing Rain was hitting 10 or more targets excluding pets. If you add all the wild imps and other pets it's over 14.

And thank you for making the log i'm going to enjoy it

Example from the logbrowser:

[16:37:49.761] Lamerok Healing Rain Lamerok +*17607* (O: 22298)
[16:37:49.916] Lamerok Healing Rain Аурелия +*25744* (O: 13614)
[16:37:49.916] Lamerok Healing Rain Kabrwar +*25003* (O: 15076)
[16:37:49.916] Lamerok Healing Rain Шипок +21339
[16:37:49.916] Lamerok Healing Rain Korovan +*30285* (O: 13261)
[16:37:49.916] Lamerok Healing Rain Loms +20102
[16:37:49.916] Lamerok Healing Rain Eltarend +*42267*
[16:37:49.916] Lamerok Healing Rain Ерлик +*44116*
[16:37:49.916] Lamerok Healing Rain Zauzza +*43706*
[16:37:49.916] Lamerok Healing Rain Pacer +*42918*
[16:37:49.916] Lamerok Healing Rain Wild Imp +0 (O: 16691)
[16:37:49.916] Lamerok Healing Rain Ebon Gargoyle +0 (O: 16824)
[16:37:49.916] Lamerok Healing Rain Wild Imp +3066 (O: 13957)
[16:37:49.916] Lamerok Healing Rain Wild Imp +3066 (O: 13697)
[16:37:49.916] Lamerok Healing Rain Лазфипу +*0* (O: 38203)
[16:37:49.916] Lamerok Healing Rain Сколл +0 (O: 20884)

[Cairhiin]

I don't really see how we can compete at the moment. SH sounds nice and all but to me sounds only viable on stacked fights, which there are very little in SoO. LoD needs some massive buffs, and EF probably as well. Correct me if I'm wrong but I also don't see SH go live like it is currently if Paladins drop down to 6k Spirit.

[Pasture]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I also don't see SH go live like it is currently if Paladins drop down to 6k Spirit.

Well as you say it can only be used on a few select fights. Paladins will need all the spirit they can get for the other fights.

I think the best option is just to have it work differently for Holy. Increases the cooldown of judgment to 15 seconds, but each judge grants the full stack of SH and 3HP. You would still have the judge playstyle, but it wouldn't be so constant. You would also be doing a lot more healing compared to judging so could not afford to drop all that spirit. In addition, judge could be used tactfully. Judge right before an AoE and get a 60% boosted instant HR follow by LoD. Would allow us to be proactive by anticipating damage and judging just before and also reactive by having those instant heals to hand.

It would create a much better playstyle and one with some potential for tactics rather than always hit judge on cooldown.

[Deleted]

Well as you say it can only be used on a few select fights. Paladins will need all the spirit they can get for the other fights.

I think the best option is just to have it work differently for Holy. Increases the cooldown of judgment to 15 seconds, but each judge grants the full stack of SH and 3HP. You would still have the judge playstyle, but it wouldn't be so constant. You would also be doing a lot more healing compared to judging so could not afford to drop all that spirit. In addition, judge could be used tactfully. Judge right before an AoE and get a 60% boosted instant HR follow by LoD. Would allow us to be proactive by anticipating damage and judging just before and also reactive by having those instant heals to hand.

It would create a much better playstyle and one with some potential for tactics rather than always hit judge on cooldown.

I agree with this. Give Judgement give 3xHoPo and 3xstacks SH and give it 3x the CD. I'd be much happier needing to think about when I judge than doing it 'on CD'.

[Deleted]

That's what I suggested a few pages ago, but I'd also like it to do refresh IH. In 10 man you LoD 6/10 people every 5 seconds so the odds of IH dropping is very low, on 25 it's a totally different story. Also SS should not cost mana, you cannot just switch talents from fight to fight when this one will need you to have 10k more spirit than SH, going to be annoying as hell to reforge after every boss if it turns out to be better on some fights.

This is what I suggested several pages back, and I still think it's the best way to go:

These are the changes we need to stay competitive next tier IMO:
-HS on 4 sec CD
-EF once again applies IH.
-SH gives judgment 15 sec CD and makes it generate 3 HP. Using it now applies 10k IH to everyone in the raid.
-SS no longer limited to 1 target, make it 3-4 target cap.

If the changes above happened I think we would be in a good position for next tier because:
1)They said they didn't like EF because everyone chose it, but now the other choices would be a viable option so that problem is fixed.
2)Paladins that actually enjoyed playing with EF can still do it.
3)SH would be a very fun talent and would give you a 250k absorb and 3 HP every 15 sec, the 15 sec should not be reduced by haste or you would keep IH up forever
4)SS would not cost mana so even though it would be slightly weaker than the other talents on most fight in terms of hps it would work well on 3 tank bosses

[Deleted]

One issue with those suggestions is that judgement and HS wont scale with haste and while I still dont think haste should be anyones number 1 priority the recent changes has made haste a lot more useful which is nice. Judgement giving 3 hp would also mean that it doesnt work with holy avenger at all unless you then made it give you 5 holy power.

[Floopa]

We need less absorbs in raids Kolori. If Paladins had all the suggestions you gave then you may as well just being Disc + Paladins because absorbs > healing. Paladins may not be in a great spot now, but giving them more absorbs isn't the answer - they just need better spread out healing.

[Lochton]

Right now, I can't see much but the door of opportunity. I haven't played the PTR, so I'll have to wait and practive when it happens. Been trying to keep up with the discussions. I do like some of the changes - but my vote ain't final till the patch is knocking on my client.

[Simulacrum]

We need less absorbs in raids Kolori. If Paladins had all the suggestions you gave then you may as well just being Disc + Paladins because absorbs > healing. Paladins may not be in a great spot now, but giving them more absorbs isn't the answer - they just need better spread out healing.

Man, I can barely restrain the urge to greentext this.

Anyway, your comment is contradicted by the buffs to SS, so it can't actually be true. It makes even less sense considering that the change he's suggesting is providing the "better spread out healing" you're saying you think paladins need, while the actual changes paladins are getting to SS don't do that. The logic is just all over the place in that comment.

[Deleted]

[B][COLOR="#008000"]Alright guys, this has been a very long and exhaustive conversation. I want it to continue, but we NEED it to stay on topic with the 5.4 PTR Changes/Discussion about the PALADIN class.

No more hidden agendas for your class of choice, no more pulling off topic with talks of other classes. Keep it classy. We're all welcome here, but the infighting is getting tiresome. Can't we just be friends?

Please just ban the people who are going on and on and on about shamans in this thread. If I want to read shaman whining I'll go the the shaman forum thanks.

We got enough to qq about with paladins without shamans claiming their stacked healing needs even more buffs lol

- - - Updated - - -

I haven't done a huge amount of testing on the PTR yet but it would seem to me they are heading in the following direction:

SH (possibly with haste stacking): viable for bosses where we are running around loads all the time (eg. Iron Juggernaut). I doubt SH will ever be viable for anything else as the wasted CDs on Judgement when we should just be healing is too much.

SS: I expect it will be good for 25m tank healing once they finalise it. If they make it scale off mastery (shield amount) or haste (increase the base number and therefore the number of caps to gain from haste, NOT reduce the CD) then it will definitely be a good option for some bosses where 2 or 3 tanks get smashed.

EF: If they buff it some more, maybe another 20%, then it would be ok for movement bosses as well, although atm there is just no point as it is just a weak rejuv / mists.

---

Please correct me if I'm wrong but that would seem to be where dev's are trying to get to?

[Deleted]

One issue with those suggestions is that judgement and HS wont scale with haste and while I still dont think haste should be anyones number 1 priority the recent changes has made haste a lot more useful which is nice. Judgement giving 3 hp would also mean that it doesnt work with holy avenger at all unless you then made it give you 5 holy power.

I did say in my post that judgement should not be reduced below 15 seconds by haste, the idea behind it is that you are able to refresh your mastery shield once not indefinitely, you would not be able to keep shields up for more than 30 seconds without refresing them with normal spells. Currently on live you can keep them up for 45 seconds with EF. We would also gain burst healing, 250k on the raid followed by LoD cause you gained 3 HP from judging, don't think a 250k heal on 25man and 100k heal on 10 man would be OP, and we would have a spell that scales for 25 just like every other class.

[Deleted]

We need less absorbs in raids Kolori. If Paladins had all the suggestions you gave then you may as well just being Disc + Paladins because absorbs > healing. Paladins may not be in a great spot now, but giving them more absorbs isn't the answer - they just need better spread out healing.

I don't agree with this or well I don't see it happening. Resto Druids and Mistweavers already have INSANE spread out healing, without absorbs paladins would never be able to contest that.

Its like having a class do 200k(random numbers) to another classes's 50k, and you buff the 50k class to 100k. The other class still does 200k, your change while being 100% actually changes nothing.

I don't think anything more will change on the PTR sadly. In a month (or at most a month and a half) the patch will hit live. Only on live will Blizzard change anything.

[Pasture]

I did say in my post that judgement should not be reduced below 15 seconds by haste, the idea behind it is that you are able to refresh your mastery shield once not indefinitely, you would not be able to keep shields up for more than 30 seconds without refresing them with normal spells. Currently on live you can keep them up for 45 seconds with EF. We would also gain burst healing, 250k on the raid followed by LoD cause you gained 3 HP from judging, don't think a 250k heal on 25man and 100k heal on 10 man would be OP, and we would have a spell that scales for 25 just like every other class.

I think they quite specifically don't want us to be able to roll shields.

[xiloclipse]

It's a tough spot to be sure. In reality the hot absorb was one of the few niches we had going for us that covered spread healing. Especially in 10m where holy rad is rarely viable when the raid isn't stacked. Now I see other healers getting significant buffs to their overall utility. Effo and genesis both look to add a lot to the druid toolbox, along with an atonement wrath for downtime or enhanced damage. We still lack a dps to heal component, which is fine if that just isn't pally, but it sure seems like when devs balance they ignore the fact that other classes can pull 50 to 70k or more on an encounter. I can't even come close to this number in a full dps rotation not healing at all. For progression this dps is invaluable. It seems like other classes get the extra dps for free.

[Deipotent]

Can someone do the math on the HS haste breakpoints now?

[Kyuuseishu]

Can someone do the math on the HS haste breakpoints now?

It's the exact same as the Judgment ones, so if there is any you can find out by looking at them.