[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[Kyuuseishu]

Why do you think this matters at all? lol... also, depending on whether or not the cloak procs 100% and it procs IH, paladins could still be very strong. Would explain the lack of compensation in the last few builds, they could be considering whether or not it's wise.

Well I think its very doubtful that the cloak's proc as an external extra heal with apply IH so that can just be thrown out the window realistically. With the way it is worded it seems like it would apply from all heals 100% of the time but blizzards wording isn't always representative of the effect. If it is indeed so, any class with the ability to keep a constant raid watch would do well with it, but even then balancing around the proc? not every holy paladin let alone healer is going to have that going into SoO, considering blizz's love of farming, it may well take several weeks to get those timeless coins.

[Pasture]

also, depending on whether or not the cloak procs 100% and it procs IH.

Why on earth would IH proc it? It doesn't proc anything else.

The cloak will depend on the fight. On stacked groups HR will make it very strong, but then, is there any healer who can't just drop an AoE ground heal for the same effect?

[Deleted]

Why on earth would IH proc it? It doesn't proc anything else.

The cloak will depend on the fight. On stacked groups HR will make it very strong, but then, is there any healer who can't just drop an AoE ground heal for the same effect?

No. Any healer has at least 1 aoe that will hit the entire raid if stacked.

Its stupid to even think that paladins didn't get buffed because of the legendary cloak proc. By the same logic, monks and priests should of been nerfed to hell because of the TFT reduction cd trinket.

[Deleted]

Well at least we have our HoT now...Hahaaa...

Though i'm assuming this has a 20-30 second internal cooldown?

[Xs]

Well at least we have our HoT now...Hahaaa...

Though i'm assuming this has a 20-30 second internal cooldown?

Just RPPM by the looks of it

[Deleted]

Also wonder if it'd proc with a EF HoT tick if so that would be pretty strong I would assume if you could just Spam 1 EFs on everyone for the cloak procs.

[Freia]

No. Any healer has at least 1 aoe that will hit the entire raid if stacked.

Its stupid to even think that paladins didn't get buffed because of the legendary cloak proc. By the same logic, monks and priests should of been nerfed to hell because of the TFT reduction cd.

That cooldown trinket just needs to be scrapped and thrown out.

Why do you think this matters at all? lol... also, depending on whether or not the cloak procs 100% and it procs IH, paladins could still be very strong. Would explain the lack of compensation in the last few builds, they could be considering whether or not it's wise.

The proc will more likely not proc IH. IH isn't procced from the Lei Shen trinket or any other similar heal. I don't even get why you would even think it would stack IH.

[Deleted]

The proc will more likely not proc IH. IH isn't procced from the Lei Shen trinket or any other similar heal. I don't even get why you would even think it would stack IH.

"depending on whether or not"

It's also worth remembering this is a legendary, not a regular trinket. I can realistically see it proccing masteries. Just a thought, no need to smash your keyboards.

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Well I think its very doubtful that the cloak's proc as an external extra heal with apply IH so that can just be thrown out the window realistically. With the way it is worded it seems like it would apply from all heals 100% of the time but blizzards wording isn't always representative of the effect. If it is indeed so, any class with the ability to keep a constant raid watch would do well with it, but even then balancing around the proc? not every holy paladin let alone healer is going to have that going into SoO, considering blizz's love of farming, it may well take several weeks to get those timeless coins.

Thanks for being the only one who didn't go ape on their keyboard, though fyi you'll have the legendary on day 0. The timeless coins drop off the island. From what I can see it'll be from a handful of quests, pickups on the island, and rares dropping keys to the chest hall. There's also a pet battle quest which drops doubles the prerequisite for the legendary quest.

[Freia]

"depending on whether or not"

It's also worth remembering this is a legendary, not a regular trinket. I can realistically see it proccing masteries. Just a thought, no need to smash your keyboards.

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Thanks for being the only one who didn't go ape on their keyboard, though fyi you'll have the legendary on day 0. The timeless coins drop off the island. From what I can see it'll be from a handful of quests, pickups on the island, and rares dropping keys to the chest hall. There's also a pet battle quest which drops doubles the prerequisite for the legendary quest.

Your definition of "going ape on their keyboard" is very exaggerated. You should probably work on your oversensitivity. Saying that it most likely will not proc based on past precedence is far from irrational and you should probably stop taking it personally.

[Kyuuseishu]

"depending on whether or not"

It's also worth remembering this is a legendary, not a regular trinket. I can realistically see it proccing masteries. Just a thought, no need to smash your keyboards.

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Thanks for being the only one who didn't go ape on their keyboard, though fyi you'll have the legendary on day 0. The timeless coins drop off the island. From what I can see it'll be from a handful of quests, pickups on the island, and rares dropping keys to the chest hall. There's also a pet battle quest which drops doubles the prerequisite for the legendary quest.

Well the whole day 0 thing depends on what goes on with defeating the celestials, I will admit I haven't read much on the island, but after all the collecting and tedious farming I can't see blizz making it that simple to do the last part.

[Deleted]

Well the whole day 0 thing depends on what goes on with defeating the celestials, I will admit I haven't read much on the island, but after all the collecting and tedious farming I can't see blizz making it that simple to do the last part.

He's assuming stuff based on an zone that isn't even on PTR. I doubt the cloak will be available day 1 because we're not testing the encounters with the cloak. Simple as.

@Reglitch. Just to give you some ideas on item changes, the Key to the Palace of Lei Shen was obtainable infinity @ PTR to make testing the Trove scenario easier and because it didn't matter. It instantly became a 1/week drop on live.

[Hypasonic]

Wonder what "improvements" blizz have in store for us regarding the EF nerf. Even though it's not looking too promising I would still feel confident with our burst healing capabilities and even aoe healing on stacking (Due to insane amounts of mastery). Can't see us falling behind THAT much on those scenarios.............spread healing yes will become an issue, but I'm not too sure what exactly they could do without just plain buffing LoD and making us spam that all the time. (Hell, I'd be happy for them to make it a frontal cone ability again but increase the range to 40 yards and the effect by xx amount)

[Deleted]

He's assuming stuff based on an zone that isn't even on PTR. I doubt the cloak will be available day 1 because we're not testing the encounters with the cloak. Simple as.

@Reglitch. Just to give you some ideas on item changes, the Key to the Palace of Lei Shen was obtainable infinity @ PTR to make testing the Trove scenario easier and because it didn't matter. It instantly became a 1/week drop on live.

I'm going off Dave Kosak's twitter, I believe he tweeted about it not too long ago. The zone will need a group to be cleared though, from my exploring every mob has a minimum of 20 million health so it's similar to dino isle up north.

[Deleted]

I'm going off Dave Kosak's twitter, I believe he tweeted about it not too long ago. The zone will need a group to be cleared though, from my exploring every mob has a minimum of 20 million health so it's similar to dino isle up north.

No he didn't or I'm just blind.

[Diatenium]

Honestly, I knew EF was going to be an issue the first second I saw them remove the target restriction on it. Players have grown so wholly dependant on the talent that it completely contradicts the inherent design purpose of having talents in the first place.

Worse yet, the talent is completely useless for Retribution and marginally-less-but-still useless for Protection. To be totally honest, I feel the talent needs to be removed entirely. The mechanic itself is fine, I grew to rather enjoy the talent, but in the broadest sense it's more a burden than anything else.

I see a lot of complaints directed at the uselessness of the other options available, namely that SS is fine mechanically but numerically impotent and SH is too much of a hassle to deal with, so I think it might be worth expressing my feelings on the matter.

Sacred Shield doesn't really need much in the way of altercation, though I think doubling the buff's duration to a minuet would improve the spell without necessarily making it more powerful--thusly making it more attractive for Ret and Holy by virtue of reduced maintenance whilst not affecting Prot's standing with the spell.

Selfless Healer is a more substantive issue. Blizzard briefly toyed with the idea of SH proccing on Holy Shock, but they chose against it because it perpetuated the issue of Holy Paladins in PvP--namely how well they perform purely via instant-casts. It would ostensibly make SH mandatory in PvP. This is also why Holy Paladins cannot generate Holy Power via Judgement. And that's really the core of the issue here; in making the spell more attractive for Holy you run the risk of breaking it in PvP. I will say, though, that SH is made weaker in the next patch if only by virtue of compulsion to select it incidentally along with other talents that proc on Judgement (Long Arm and Burden, the latter of which was replaced by EiaPoV)

Hell, I could go on about how making EPV a talent is a nerf to Holy Paladins in PvP that also benefits neither of the other specs but I'm rambling enough as it is.

Ultimately, nerfing the talent might seem like a solution to Holy but it still doesn't change the fact that it's not a compelling choice to the other two specs; it simply doesn't work in this context.

[Deleted]

You are seriously reading too much into what I am saying and arguing things I never even said. I was speaking on my experience for 25m raiding because that is what I raid. I raided 10m during T14 where I did use a decent amount of single target heals but gear was lower so mana was a little bit more of an issue. So I was saying that for 25m adding HP generation to all Divine Light and FoL casts would not "greatly increase holy power generation". I never said, "All 10m paladins cast is single target heals and you should always be casting single target heals in 10m in all situations!"

lol, and I was simply saying it would be the same in 10m. you may not have said it, but many people are still thinking 10m = spam fol/dl. Try to be less egocentric, when a post gets quoted it doesn't mean it's entirely aimed at the quotee.

I honestly feel like if we don't get changes this ptr cycle we're either 1. gonna end up screwed 2. have kneejerk buffs and end up stupidly OP.

[Ceresc]

Let's pretend that we perfectly understand that throughput isn't the only thing. Where do we shine in utility that makes up for our crap throughput? (By the way, Shaman utility in T15, except for Dark Animus, was great).

Sorry, I should have clarified. It was a blanket statement of all healers utility vs throughput.

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Why do you think this matters at all? lol... also, depending on whether or not the cloak procs 100% and it procs IH, paladins could still be very strong. Would explain the lack of compensation in the last few builds, they could be considering whether or not it's wise.

Because its the community's mindset. And reality says that if you aren't bringing the throughput AND the utility then you are getting benched. Especially when your "utility" is a CD brought by every other spec in your class and is situational at best.

And basing paladin throughput on a legendary? That EVERY OTHER healer spec can get? What about the players that don't have it? Also, our mastery change in 5.4 clearly states that Illuminated Healing will no longer proc off of periodic healing effects. That would include the cloak proc being that it is a 3% heal over 3 secs.

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Also wonder if it'd proc with a EF HoT tick if so that would be pretty strong I would assume if you could just Spam 1 EFs on everyone for the cloak procs.

No, it is only the initial heal that procs it. Same for every other HoT in the game, i.e. Wild Growth, Renewing Mists, etc

[Freia]

lol, and I was simply saying it would be the same in 10m. you may not have said it, but many people are still thinking 10m = spam fol/dl. Try to be less egocentric, when a post gets quoted it doesn't mean it's entirely aimed at the quotee.

I honestly feel like if we don't get changes this ptr cycle we're either 1. gonna end up screwed 2. have kneejerk buffs and end up stupidly OP.

Go reread your posts. Absolutely nothing in them showed it wasn't aimed toward me. Quite the opposite. Maybe you should have quoted the person(Sellinz) who raids in 10m heroic and made the suggestions that DL and FoL giving HP would greatly up HP generation instead of me.

[Sellinz]

mfw people argue over me asking opinions on an idea, I understand how powerful Radiance is (In both settings) But I don't feel DL / Flash are as worthless as people make them out to be, while Radiance is a better choice 8/10 I feel like you guys are saying neither have any real place outside of meta gem procs, though my experience in 25m is limited I completely agree maybe my idea was underwhelming for 25s.

[nightfalls]

But I don't feel DL / Flash are as worthless as people make them out to be, while Radiance is a better choice 8/10 I feel like you guys are saying neither have any real place outside of meta gem procs, though my experience in 25m is limited I completely agree maybe my idea was underwhelming for 25s.

DL and Flash are definitely more used in 10 than 25, but there are some fights next tier where I can see those two being used more even in 25m.