[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[Flaring]

It's not a change. It's a flat out nerf. Right now it's a mechanic that some Paladins take advantage of when they can and it can generate a decent amount of mana if used properly. It didn't require much foresight or planning, because all you have to do is right click the boss every time you target him and your character will automatically attack him if you're in range. If there is no compensation for this mechanic (IE maybe they add 2% onto our Divine Plea?) it is quite simply a nerf without reason.

They obviously have changes in mind for the SoI nerf at least; Prot paladins will be unable to sustain mana with their normal rotations without the SoI regen. Why they're taking so long to make any changes or at least say something is baffling though....reminds me of what Mistweavers went through during the 5.2 PTR.

It's not a change. It's a flat out nerf. Right now it's a mechanic that some Paladins take advantage of when they can and it can generate a decent amount of mana if used properly. It didn't require much foresight or planning, because all you have to do is right click the boss every time you target him and your character will automatically attack him if you're in range. If there is no compensation for this mechanic (IE maybe they add 2% onto our Divine Plea?) it is quite simply a nerf without reason.

On some fights that is by far your highest regen source. Maybe the 25%, 1 minute DP of old would balance that out.

[IxilaFA]

They obviously have changes in mind for the SoI nerf at least; Prot paladins will be unable to sustain mana with their normal rotations without the SoI regen. Why they're taking so long to make any changes or at least say something is baffling though....reminds me of what Mistweavers went through during the 5.2 PTR.

Yeah it just baffles me that they would break it down into segments regarding the nerf. Why nerf a spell one PTR build and then wait until the next PTR build to possibly push a buff through?

On some fights that is by far your highest regen source. Maybe the 25%, 1 minute DP of old would balance that out.

You are mostly correct here, on HC Megaera for example SoI is typically my second highest regen source. I've never seen it get close to beating Horridon's Gasp as far as mana returned, however.

But of course that's based on the fact that on Megaera I only have 20 seconds out of every minute for SoI regen while Horridon's Gasp is going constantly.

[Flaring]

True, like I said in an earlier post being balanced around SoI regen is horrible class design. I'm all for removing it but they need to compensate us with something else.

Fights where SoI is generally my top regen:

-Horridon
-Council (pretty close to Horridons depending on procs though)
-Tortos
-Ji-Kun
-Durumu
-Dark Animus (close to Horridons)
-Haven't attempted Ra-Den yet as we're still on heroic Lei-Shen, but as you're in melee the entire fight...this one too obviously.

So yeah....MAJOR nerf.

[Paliniu]

It is not included here, but, in a a previous blue post, it showed that the mastery benefit was being taken away from all periodic healing effects, which would include EF and LH. If this is true, it will really gimp pally healing, since illuminated healing is our #1 heal ability. In this case, I am thinking of going haste build instead of mastery build if this happens, so as to get quicker hot ticks from EF and more TOT trinket procs. Since EF is getting buffed significantly, it will still be a viable talent. Any thoughts on my possible change from mastery build to haste build?

[Kyuuseishu]

It is not included here, but, in a a previous blue post, it showed that the mastery benefit was being taken away from all periodic healing effects, which would include EF and LH. If this is true, it will really gimp pally healing, since illuminated healing is our #1 heal ability. In this case, I am thinking of going haste build instead of mastery build if this happens, so as to get quicker hot ticks from EF and more TOT trinket procs. Since EF is getting buffed significantly, it will still be a viable talent. Any thoughts on my possible change from mastery build to haste build?

I think you need to do more reading, EF hasn't changed, they reduced its initial heal, then reverted it, it does the same healing it does on live now without its periodic effect adding to the mastery shield. The mastery change also only effects EF, LH still stacks shields.

[Freia]

It is not included here, but, in a a previous blue post, it showed that the mastery benefit was being taken away from all periodic healing effects, which would include EF and LH. If this is true, it will really gimp pally healing, since illuminated healing is our #1 heal ability. In this case, I am thinking of going haste build instead of mastery build if this happens, so as to get quicker hot ticks from EF and more TOT trinket procs. Since EF is getting buffed significantly, it will still be a viable talent. Any thoughts on my possible change from mastery build to haste build?

We have definitely mentioned EF not adding IH many times in this thread. Taking it from Light's Hammer was stated to be unintended and last time I checked was fixed. Mastery is still be king pending compensation.

[Paliniu]

my main issue wasn't so much ef as it was LH, so if LH will still benefit, then I will stay my mastery build. Cool cool!

[Freia]

my main issue wasn't so much ef as it was LH, so if LH will still benefit, then I will stay my mastery build. Cool cool!

I'd take it being taken off of LH again if they made it effect EF. That is the part that actually hurts us.

[Paliniu]

We have definitely mentioned EF not adding IH many times in this thread. Taking it from Light's Hammer was stated to be unintended and last time I checked was fixed. Mastery is still be king pending compensation.

at one point, LH didn't provide mastery bubble, but now does. if mastery is taken away from EF hot ticks, but not LH, I will still go mastery build

[Flaring]

at one point, LH didn't provide mastery bubble, but now does. if mastery is taken away from EF hot ticks, but not LH, I will still go mastery build

You would still be going mastery build even if LH didn't proc shields (but it does). Haste and crit are that terrible.

[nightfalls]

I basically have no choice as part of a 25 man guild with 8 healers on the roster. Being terrible as a holy paladin is probably still better than adding a 3rd priest/druid/shaman or 4th leather/int wearer (6th if you include our boomkins!).

If the game went live as is, I'm not sure I would agree with your statement. There was a point on PTR, before they reverted their EF change, where I realized that being a 3rd disc, which is a spec I'm relatively terrible at and who has no gear/cloak, would still be better, raid-wide, than playing my paladin.

[Freia]

at one point, LH didn't provide mastery bubble, but now does. if mastery is taken away from EF hot ticks, but not LH, I will still go mastery build

I am aware LH used to not apply mastery. I am questioning why LH having its interaction with IH removed made you question a mastery build but EF losing its interaction doesn't considering that hurts more than if they took it off of LH again (that would just make Holy Prism more powerful really).

[Paliniu]

I am aware LH used to not apply mastery. I am questioning why LH having its interaction with IH removed made you question a mastery build but EF losing its interaction doesn't considering that hurts more than if they took it off of LH again (that would just make Holy Prism more powerful really).

you don't use LP over LH or vice versa. each ability is better than the other on certain fights. LP for more spread out fights. My decision wasn't final, which is why I was expressing my concern here. Yes, haste is pretty bad, but in this patch, haste is good for the fact that it gives these trinkets more proc chance since they don't have any internal cd. Lights hammer is good as a preemptive heal, like when you know huge aoe is gonna happen like on iron qon to have a little bubble ready for everyone stacked. That was my biggest concern that that would be taken away, because as it is, LH doesn't heal that strong, and having IH with it makes it damn good. I already stack mastery, so even if EF and LH didn't receive the mastery benefit, after discussing all of it here, I would still stay mastery. Thanks for the assistance.

[Dubalicious]

If the game went live as is

If the game went live as-is I would sit myself for all heroic progression unless BoP/Purity was overpowered and our 2 rets weren't enough to cover the particular mechanic, or there was an 8 heal fight. I suppose that's the advantage of having 8 healers on the roster. I honestly wouldn't feel that compelled to reroll for the final tier of the expansion unless I was directly asked to.

[Deleted]

My raid spot isn't at risk. We're a 10 man with only 3 healers. That said I'm worried my enjoyment of this tier is going to be poor. It's not fun being crap. We don't even have a niche we can shine in.

Unfortunately I don't have time to reroll. If I did I'd probably go druid.

This is exactly my problem though; I'd quit or sit progression, but I'm the rl/gm so people don't really like to play progress without me. It's utterly horrible feeling useless though. [+ it feels clunky and horrid to play atm, and it'll just be more hr spam in 5.4) So between a rock and a hard place, and really considering my place in the game (+ had really bad loot luck so i'm sitting @ 530 ilvl while the other healer is 547). Hard to compete against really good monks and priests already, so this is just ... for me.

[Freia]

you don't use LP over LH or vice versa. each ability is better than the other on certain fights. LP for more spread out fights. My decision wasn't final, which is why I was expressing my concern here. Yes, haste is pretty bad, but in this patch, haste is good for the fact that it gives these trinkets more proc chance since they don't have any internal cd. Lights hammer is good as a preemptive heal, like when you know huge aoe is gonna happen like on iron qon to have a little bubble ready for everyone stacked. That was my biggest concern that that would be taken away, because as it is, LH doesn't heal that strong, and having IH with it makes it damn good. I already stack mastery, so even if EF and LH didn't receive the mastery benefit, after discussing all of it here, I would still stay mastery. Thanks for the assistance.

And my point was taking IH off of EF is going to effect us a hell of lot more than them taking it off of LH because you stated you were more worried about it being taken off LH. And yes taking it off of LH would weaken the talent which would in turn put points in favor of Holy Prism.

[Deleted]

And my point was taking IH off of EF is going to effect us a hell of lot more than them taking it off of LH because you stated you were more worried about it being taken off LH. And yes taking it off of LH would weaken the talent which would in turn put points in favor of Holy Prism.

Can't see LH outplaying prism much in new raid anyway. Not much stacking to do.

[nightfalls]

If the game went live as-is I would sit myself for all heroic progression unless BoP/Purity was overpowered and our 2 rets weren't enough to cover the particular mechanic, or there was an 8 heal fight. I suppose that's the advantage of having 8 healers on the roster. I honestly wouldn't feel that compelled to reroll for the final tier of the expansion unless I was directly asked to.

Right, it's either go Disc (which would still be better than playing your main) or better yet, get another Disc and sit the tier out. Might as well unsub the game while at it.

[edit] Don't get me wrong, I fully do believe and have faith that at least on paper, Blizzard will buff us.

Of course, on paper having some bullshit like +50% increased Daybreak, T16 2pc buffed to +20%, etc. will equal nothing at all, but I don't think they really care.

[Deleted]

Of course, on paper having some bullshit like +50% increased Daybreak, T16 2pc buffed to +20%, etc. will equal nothing at all, but I don't think they really care.

^
This so much this..

[Flaring]

Right, it's either go Disc (which would still be better than playing your main) or better yet, get another Disc and sit the tier out. Might as well unsub the game while at it.

[edit] Don't get me wrong, I fully do believe and have faith that at least on paper, Blizzard will buff us.

Of course, on paper having some bullshit like +50% increased Daybreak, T16 2pc buffed to +20%, etc. will equal nothing at all, but I don't think they really care.

For all the doom and gloom posted in this thread, I do agree. They obviously have plans for the spec (Holy has NEVER just been unviable for heroic progression in any tier).

They need to hold off on announcing any nerfs until they have the compensation ready at the same time though. Nerf, announce that there will be compensation, nerf and nerf again without said compensation a month later is not the way to go.

If the current PTR build were to go live? Yeah, I would just unsub until next expansion. I don't have the legendary questline up to date on my MW or Disc and I'm not going through all that again (also I just love playing paladin). I don't believe it will come to that though.