[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[nightfalls]

1) SH is not an interesting talent if all we're taking it is for the "Judgment generates Holy Power" effect and not because we actually want the "Selfless Heal." Sorry but even if that talent becomes mandatory for that reason, it's a failure.

2) Sanctity of Battle is not as exciting as it sounds. With an average amount of melee haste (not boosted by Divine Favor or Seal of Insight), we're looking at about a ~5.2 second Holy Shock. 0.8 seconds, woohoo.

[Gilthresa]

1) SH is not an interesting talent if all we're taking it is for the "Judgment generates Holy Power" effect and not because we actually want the "Selfless Heal." Sorry but even if that talent becomes mandatory for that reason, it's a failure.

2) Sanctity of Battle is not as exciting as it sounds. With an average amount of melee haste (not boosted by Divine Favor or Seal of Insight), we're looking at about a ~5.2 second Holy Shock. 0.8 seconds, woohoo.

0.8 seconds over a 6 minute fight is another 3 EFs or LOD just from nothing :P not huge, but its something.

[Floopa]

Ah okay, that's a bit unfortunate. Thought it would be kind of cool if it worked that way though. As Voidspark said though, unless Paladins start gearing/gemming around haste at best this change is a ~1 sec decrease. It's not "life changing" by any means.

[Hypasonic]

If they want us to embrace this new sanctity of battle they could at least change Seal of Insight so it affects melee haste too........and in that event, I doubt (unless it turns out to be awesome) that I would take SH.......I don't want my holy pala turning into a ret where you have to spam your abilities as quick as you can before the next one comes off cd :>

[Lumineux]

I think the changes to SH are looking decent. We've been asking for another way to generate Holy Power and here it is. I'm excited to try this and see how it goes because I'm tired of being forced to take EF and blanket the raid, it's not a playstyle I particularly enjoyed. I'm really glad that we'll potentially have options in that tier. I get that EF might still be better, but I'm tired of being required to take it.

Still no change to DP glyph though

They did:
Glyph of Divine Plea Divine Plea now has a 5 sec cast time, but you receive 15% of your total mana instantly and your healing is not reduced. Major Glyph.

[Dubalicious]

Not crazy about haste reducing the CD rather than a reduction on the spell itself, but I guess it's something.

[Piitz]

So, were going haste in 5.4? :S

[nightfalls]

I think the changes to SH are looking decent. We've been asking for another way to generate Holy Power and here it is. I'm excited to try this and see how it goes because I'm tired of being forced to take EF and blanket the raid, it's not a playstyle I particularly enjoyed. I'm really glad that we'll potentially have options in that tier. I get that EF might still be better, but I'm tired of being required to take it.

I'm still not a fan of managing two cooldowns, especially because it seems it will be virtually forced at this point (i.e. we will be balanced around it).

Divine Plea now has a 5 sec cast time, but you receive 15% of your total mana instantly and your healing is not reduced. Major Glyph.

I'm thinking that glyph should just be scrapped, either Divine Plea unglyphed will have to be bad, or that glyph will just never be worth taking at this point.

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So, were going haste in 5.4? :S

I doubt it.

[Deleted]

I somewhat hoped we could have used trinkets with Spirit Procs to ensure enough mana regen. I mean look at Rapture vs Divine Plea in the current implementations.

[Hypasonic]

They did:
Glyph of Divine Plea Divine Plea now has a 5 sec cast time, but you receive 15% of your total mana instantly and your healing is not reduced. Major Glyph.

Something tell's me that is not going to be final, why would you want a 5 second cast time on divine plea when without it doesn't reduce your healing anymore :P

[nightfalls]

I somewhat hoped we could have used trinkets with Spirit Procs to ensure enough mana regen. I mean look at Rapture vs Divine Plea in the current implementations.

Rapture doesn't use short-duration procs IIRC; the only problem I'd have with that is that you'd basically be holding Plea for procs (such as the 20k spirit decreasing per cast proc), which would take you from 0 to ~50-60% mana in 9 seconds.

edit: I get what you mean though, perfect Divine Plea on CD gives 40.5% spirit every 12 seconds, Rapture gives 150% spirit every 12 seconds.

[Deleted]

Rapture doesn't use short-duration procs IIRC; the only problem I'd have with that is that you'd basically be holding Plea for procs (such as the 20k spirit decreasing per cast proc), which would take you from 0 to ~50-60% mana in 9 seconds.

And the problem is? Divine Plea not working with short duration spirit procs(like Rapture is not) means that to even out mana regen it would need to return 1200% of Spirit(i used 8 Raptures instead of all the possible 10 to be fair). Right now Divine Plea returns 405. Aka Divine Plea is 3 times less then what it should be. I was willing to accept 405% Spirit DP IF it worked with Spirit Procs. Not like this.

[Tiberria]

If I am understanding the wording on the new GoAK correctly - it copies 10% of all healing that you do while it's up (AoE and single target) to all targets within 10 yards. Therefore, if you do 100,000 HPS with GoAK up and have the entire 25 man raid within a 10 yard range, GoAK will do 250,000 HPS (about 3.8 million healing) - in addition to the 100,000 HPS that you do to trigger it. That puts it in line with cooldowns like Ancestral Guidance. If you do more than 100k HPS with it up (which is highly likely if you stack it with AW and DF), you could probably see 6 million+.

It will still be very dependent on how stacked the raid is though. On a spread raid where it's only hitting melee, you will lose up to 2/3 of the value.

[Lumineux]

I'm still not a fan of managing two cooldowns, especially because it seems it will be virtually forced at this point (i.e. we will be balanced around it).



I'm thinking that glyph should just be scrapped, either Divine Plea unglyphed will have to be bad, or that glyph will just never be worth taking at this point.

- - - Updated - - -



I doubt it.

Definitely agree with the DP glyph. Doesn't make sense to 15% of your mana back instantly if you're still casting for 5 seconds (well more like 4 with haste and all, but still).

With SH though, I see what you mean but I like that they are looking at giving us other ways to generate Holy Power. I've been playing my monk alt (no I'm not rerolling, just for fun) and it's amazing how many cheap and efficient ways they have to generate chi and they have to juggle a couple CDs (expel harm/renewing mists). I don't think adding Judgment into the mix of our toolkit would be too difficult to handle. Better than HR spam, in my opinion. And luckily, since there are 3 choices on this tier, if someone doesn't like using Judgment, they can take something else (assuming everything gets buffed up to similar levels).

[Tiberria]

And the problem is? Divine Plea not working with short duration spirit procs(like Rapture is not) means that to even out mana regen it would need to return 1200% of Spirit(i used 8 Raptures instead of all the possible 10 to be fair). Right now Divine Plea returns 405. Aka Divine Plea is 3 times less then what it should be. I was willing to accept 405% Spirit DP IF it worked with Spirit Procs. Not like this.

Having DP (and Innervate) work off short term Spirit procs is ridiculous. It will create balance problems, where you will need to be balanced around having certain trinkets, and will either be underpowered without those trinkets (if they balance around it) or grossly overpowered with them (if they don't balance around them). In addition, Priests and Shaman will have every right to expect MTT and Innervate to work off Spirit procs if they let DP and Innervate work off them.

The much more reasonable solution is - make them not work with short term Spirit procs, and then buff Divine Plea or other portions of Paladin regen to where it should be - not make them reliant on having certain trinkets and cheesing certain procs.

[Deleted]

Having DP (and Innervate) work off short term Spirit procs is ridiculous. It will create balance problems, where you will need to be balanced around having certain trinkets, and will either be underpowered without those trinkets (if they balance around it) or grossly overpowered with them (if they don't balance around them). In addition, Priests and Shaman will have every right to expect MTT and Innervate to work off Spirit procs if they let DP and Innervate work off them.

The much more reasonable solution is - make them not work with short term Spirit procs, and then buff Divine Plea or other portions of Paladin regen to where it should be - not make them reliant on having certain trinkets and cheesing certain procs.

Either way I don't care but a 12 sec cd Rapture returning 150% of Spirit and a 2 minutes cd DP returning 405% of Spirit doesn't ever add up.

[Pasture]

I'd be interested to see what a full haste build looks like. What sort of cooldown can we get on Holy Shock and Judgment with maximum levels of haste?

Perhaps some of you mega geared lot can give full haste builds and SH a go on some relevant ptr fights and see the results. I can see it perhaps being a little bit more effective in 10s.

[Peachpies]

If I am understanding the wording on the new GoAK correctly - it copies 10% of all healing that you do while it's up (AoE and single target) to all targets within 10 yards. Therefore, if you do 100,000 HPS with GoAK up and have the entire 25 man raid within a 10 yard range, GoAK will do 250,000 HPS (about 3.8 million healing) - in addition to the 100,000 HPS that you do to trigger it. That puts it in line with cooldowns like Ancestral Guidance. If you do more than 100k HPS with it up (which is highly likely if you stack it with AW and DF), you could probably see 6 million+.

It will still be very dependent on how stacked the raid is though. On a spread raid where it's only hitting melee, you will lose up to 2/3 of the value.

It is still only useful on stacked up targets which is about 2 fights and you cant get a 50% haste buff from it. Also saying it is inline with cooldowns like ancestral guidance is ridiculous when it is 2,5x longer cooldown.

[Floopa]

Either way I don't care but a 12 sec cd Rapture returning 150% of Spirit and a 2 minutes cd DP returning 405% of Spirit doesn't ever add up.

But Priest skills cost a lot. Said no-one ever.

[Kyuuseishu]

Either way I don't care but a 12 sec cd Rapture returning 150% of Spirit and a 2 minutes cd DP returning 405% of Spirit doesn't ever add up.

Im not trying to prove anything but you seem to be over exagerating rapture a tad, but working off some values for my current raid

Priest: PW:S cost is 13725 mana, they have 12000 spirit returning 18000 mana per rapture proc. Assuming they get atleast 8 procs per 2 minutes this is a net gain of 34200 mana per 2 minutes atleast. (this is not including shields cast under meta proc)

Paladin: I currently have 15000 spirit, DP costs nothing to activate, returns 60750 mana per 2 minutes.

It may return a large % of spirit but considering the cost of the shield it isn't massively powerful. Yes I know this combined with fiend, PW: Solace and the cheapness of their spells adds up to a whole lot of regen, but Rapture isn't nearly as powerful as you seem to be making it out to be.