[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[Absintheminded]

He did say that SH will not work for every Paladin, but he has also said that he plans on making SS compete with EF so we are not done seeing changes to SS (one would think).

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...32878329487360

[Simulacrum]

He did say that SH will not work for every Paladin, but he has also said that he plans on making SS compete with EF so we are not done seeing changes to SS (one would think).

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...32878329487360

Sounds like a euphemism for "nerf EF" to me. Which I guess they already did.

So they just need to buff SS a little and they're done! It can now "compete" with (the new and 'improved') EF!

Maybe next they'll help us not feel so much like we need to stack spirit, by nerfing the amount of regen that we get from it. Other stats are now better than they used to be, by comparison!

[Deleted]

How i feel as a paladin healer..



I used to rule the world
Meters would rise when I gave the word
Now in 5.4 I stand alone
Last in the meters I used to own

I used to roll the cd's
Feel the relief in my team's eyes
Listen as the raid would sing
"That damned boss is dead! Long live absorvs!"

One minute I held the key
Next the shamys were closed on me
And I discovered that my healing stands
Upon pillars of salt and pillars of sand

I hear Druids are getting a new nature's vigil
And shamans more cooldowns for stacked heals
Monks need no sprit, they just spam chii heals
And priest will just keep with atonment heal

For some reason I can't explain
Once we lost EF it was never
Never an honest buff
And that was when I ruled the world

It was the tweeting and the forum qq
People panicking about what was happening
Just dreading what was about to come
People couldn't believe what we had become

All the other healers wait
For my head on a silver plate
Just puppet on a lonely string
Oh who would ever want to be king?

I hear Druids are getting a new nature's vigil
And shamans more cooldowns for stacked heals
Monks need no sprit, they just spam chii heals
And priest will just keep with atonment heal

For some reason I can't explain
I know Ghost Crawler won't buff my class
Never an honest buff
But that was when I ruled the world

I hear Druids are getting a new nature's vigil
And shamans more cooldowns for stacked heals
Monks need no sprit, they just spam chii heals
And priest will just keep with atonment heal

For some reason I can't explain
I know Ghost Crawler won't buff my class
Never an honest buff
But that was when I ruled the world

[Dubalicious]

Speaking of Sacred Shield!

Somebody else will have to confirm, but currently on the PTR Holy Insight is not affecting SS at all. Just looking at my expected values, that 25% from Holy Insight seems to be missing. If that is the case, that would be a good first step to bringing it in line =)

[E] Maybe it's always been this way? I haven't checked in quite a while, but neither HI or Seal of Insight seem to increase the SS absorb

[Taygete]

Not to mention that if you happen to get out of range of the boss or you switch targets for any reason, you could be wasting time trying to move into range targeting an enemy. All of this is time spent not healing the raid, which in heroics is a significant disadvantage for our class.

Judgment has a pretty big range... you would have to be nearly out of range to heal the tank/melee in order to be out of range of your target, which you just shouldn't be unless you've been specifically assigned to heal a group of ranged on the other side of the room. It just doesn't happen that often. Targeting a boss in order to judge or even to use holy prism just isn't that hard. If you are letting people die when you have to move, how do you survive any fight that involves any kind of movement? Do you only ever heal on fights where you can just stand in one spot and spam? There are plenty of times in most fights where you have to move ANYWAY, and THAT is when you cast judgment if HS or prism isn't up. Obviously you learn not to use it when not healing someone in that moment would cause problems... but all that takes is smart play, not a more user-friendly play-style. The past year is the ONLY time that holy paladins haven't had to cast judgment, so I really don't see why picking up this talent and using it would be that much of a stretch for most of us, unless you never healed on a paladin pre-pandaria.

Not to mention... /focus assist macros do wonders. You don't have to target your target at all. You might want a little more flexibility in terms of changing your target in pvp, but in pve it doesn't really matter. Just set your focus and judge when you have a spare second. No fumbling with your targets, no accidentally pulling something from across the room (haha), easy.

I hope hope HOPE that this ends up being a viable choice for pve. But I also hope that EF (and SS would be nice too) are equally as useful.

[Deleted]

So how many fights in ToT could you consistently get that rotation off? By no means am I trying to justify this talent but what you just said literally asked for the perfect situation in the raid. FoL is also .9 second cast time with 1 SH proc. SH talent can consistently Generate 3 holy power 2-4 seconds faster then HS, HR, HR. Also to rely on a infusion of light proc is just silly. You can not sit there and tell me they are even close in holy power generation.

On 9/13 without issues. Ofc I can sit here and tell you are they close in holy power generation, you're analyzing the first 5 seconds of a fight with little regard to the rest of the fight,how you need to heal the raid, what the encounter is about and so on and so forth, not to mention doing a Judgement that helps your hps with 0.Btw ,saying I can't bring into discussion a 50% chance proc is silly. You're also missing the other point, you have 3 holy power now what? The Holy Power finishers at your disposal are bad. Can you agree at least that on any fight you can melee on, the extra Holy Power from judging is useless?

Even on fights you can't melee on you can do a Holy Radiance(which costs 21.6k mana and has a 2.5 cast time instead of 1.5) but grants the same 1 Holy Power. Yes, here you can have a slightly higher HP generation with judgement as you'll oom from Radiance(+by default using Judgement is faster then HS HR HR), but lets be serious, you'd do so little healing that any good guild would bench anyway on progression.

[Cairhiin]

Sounds like you haven't even given it a chance.

What is there a chance to give for? This is a more obnoxious version of Judgements of the Pure, instead of every 30 seconds, you now gotta waste a global every time judgement is off cooldown, something Ghostcrawler stated wasn't very fun. Now it's back, and worse than before. I don't need to give it a chance to know I hate it, and won't be speccing it unless it is the only viable choice.

Can't believe some of you are so happy about this Selfless Healers, wasting global cooldowns for 1 holy power, you consider this more fun than rolling Eternal Flames? Surely, you jest.

[Virsta1]

On 9/13 without issues. Ofc I can sit here and tell you are they close in holy power generation, you're analyzing the first 5 seconds of a fight with little regard to the rest of the fight,how you need to heal the raid, what the encounter is about and so on and so forth, not to mention doing a Judgement that helps your hps with 0.Btw ,saying I can't bring into discussion a 50% chance proc is silly. You're also missing the other point, you have 3 holy power now what? The Holy Power finishers at your disposal are bad. Can you agree at least that on any fight you can melee on, the extra Holy Power from judging is useless?

Even on fights you can't melee on you can do a Holy Radiance(which costs 21.6k mana and has a 2.5 cast time instead of 1.5) but grants the same 1 Holy Power. Yes, here you can have a slightly higher HP generation with judgement as you'll oom from Radiance(+by default using Judgement is faster then HS HR HR), but lets be serious, you'd do so little healing that any good guild would bench anyway on progression.

I mean crusader strike does nothing for healing either unless you take battle healer. But I am just trying to have an open mind. A lot of people in this thread are super negative. I don't blame them but just not how I like to handle things. I am also wondering what bosses you can be in melee for 9 fights. The only ones I can sit in melee consistently is Jin'Rokh, Horridong, Council, Tortos, Durumu, Primordius, DA, and Ra'den. I just wanna know your other fight(guessing Ji'kuhn). probably just a difference in strats. The difference in Hpower is pretty significant when you are not able to be in melee. I have not done enough fights on PTR to say whether or not SH is even close in numbers with EF. I don't think anyone has tested it though in a raid setting?? Correct me if I am wrong. I do not follow actual testing dates.

[Deleted]

What about giving judgement a smite-heal component in addition to 1 HoPo with SH?
Imho the paladin lacks "something cool". The finishers aren't really strong and atm and with EF blanketing gone the last "cool" mechanic does not work anymore.
Maybe i am wrong, because atm i play Prot mainly, but we have the most problems at fights with people spread. Our singletarget heals take ~2 seconds and will definately be sniped... So what's the way to go on a spread fight? HR HR HS (all on melees) and cast the WoG on the mage standing in the fire for a second too long? This makes me feel like "doh, i spent my 3 HoPo just for one singletarget heal, that hits like a DL would have done"

I like the idea of giving LoD a HoT component. And i like the idea of judging in between like we did in the last content to get mana back. But judging should be a filler for moments, when you actually not need to heal immediately and therefore should give us some bonus or power for the healing afterwards.

[Medario]

I mean crusader strike does nothing for healing either unless you take battle healer. But I am just trying to have an open mind. A lot of people in this thread are super negative. I don't blame them but just not how I like to handle things. I am also wondering what bosses you can be in melee for 9 fights. .

i assume ji kun, megaera, last phase IQ, partly twins. For all those it depends on strategy and is only a small % of time of the whole boss fight, but obviously possibly.
either way, as blizz doesn't classify us as melee they should remove cs/remove hp from cs for hpala

[Deleted]

I am also wondering what bosses you can be in melee for 9 fights. The only ones I can sit in melee consistently is Jin'Rokh, Horridong, Council, Tortos, Durumu, Primordius, DA, and Ra'den. I just wanna know your other fight(guessing Ji'kuhn).

You an sit full time in melee at Ji-kun, the melee dps should all be behind the boss so you can easily sit to the side and not aoe them with CAW. Also on Megaera you can sit in melee if you do the "ignore blue head strategy".

[mcbubble]

Finally got a response to Aladya and my question about mana returns:
@Ghostcrawler To even out with an unskilled disc(are there any skilled???) using 8 Raptures, DP needs to return 1200% spirit,not 405.
@Ady_Mx It's very hard to just look at mana %s and make class comparisons. Time to zero mana under a variety of scenarios is more relevant.
@Ghostcrawler@Ady_Mx Then please compare how other healers drop spirit. MW Monks running 7k spirit and finish 100% mana is broken.
@skattmanjoe We agree that MW and Disc are eschewing Spirit (at high ilevels) that other healers can't afford to do.

[Leefa]

Currently Guardian is bugged on the ptr, it's supposed to stay for 15 seconds while in reality it still disappears after 5 heals. Could be why it "sucks" during testing as it's up for less than half the duration. A single Holy Radiance makes it disappear as well.

[mcbubble]

I would love to have a glyph that allows judgement to heal a friendly player (similar to the monk Expel Harm glyph).
It would at least make SH make sense!

[Floopa]

While I do understand Paladin concerns I had a friend of mine link me this today: http://bestmonk.eu/paladins/ (TURN SOUND DOWN XD)

It's funny and sad at the same time. The hypocrisy/contradictions...

[Dubalicious]

While I do understand Paladin concerns I had a friend of mine link me this today: http://bestmonk.eu/paladins/ (TURN SOUND DOWN XD)

It's funny and sad at the same time. The hypocrisy/contradictions...

I did laugh when I saw bestmonk.eu redirected to Reglitch's armory. Did you do this you sly sob? That is either genius or some impressive trolling by somebody else lol

People getting upset at the people who aren't getting upset/complaining about SH is something I just don't understand. There has to be more changes coming and *nobody* thinks this even started to solve our PvE issues. It's definitely hard to stay patient, but don't take it out on your fellow paladins =p

[Floopa]

I did laugh when I saw bestmonk.eu redirected to Reglitch's armory. Did you do this you sly sob? That is either genius or some impressive trolling by somebody else lol

People getting upset at the people who aren't getting upset/complaining about SH is something I just don't understand. There has to be more changes coming and *nobody* thinks this even started to solve our PvE issues. It's definitely hard to stay patient, but don't take it out on your fellow paladins =p

It's not me, but I agree it's some pretty impressive trolling.

[Freia]

Finally got a response to Aladya and my question about mana returns:
@Ghostcrawler To even out with an unskilled disc(are there any skilled???) using 8 Raptures, DP needs to return 1200% spirit,not 405.
@Ady_Mx It's very hard to just look at mana %s and make class comparisons. Time to zero mana under a variety of scenarios is more relevant.
@Ghostcrawler@Ady_Mx Then please compare how other healers drop spirit. MW Monks running 7k spirit and finish 100% mana is broken.
@skattmanjoe We agree that MW and Disc are eschewing Spirit (at high ilevels) that other healers can't afford to do.

Whats funny is it isn't even just high ilvl monks who drop spirit and 7k is too much spirit to them (they want as little spirit as possible).

I did laugh when I saw bestmonk.eu redirected to Reglitch's armory. Did you do this you sly sob? That is either genius or some impressive trolling by somebody else lol

People getting upset at the people who aren't getting upset/complaining about SH is something I just don't understand. There has to be more changes coming and *nobody* thinks this even started to solve our PvE issues. It's definitely hard to stay patient, but don't take it out on your fellow paladins =p

I see more people upset that people are saying SH isn't raid viable than what you are describing.

[Deleted]

Currently Guardian is bugged on the ptr, it's supposed to stay for 15 seconds while in reality it still disappears after 5 heals. Could be why it "sucks" during testing as it's up for less than half the duration. A single Holy Radiance makes it disappear as well.

Nah. Its a 5 minute cd, that lasts 15 seconds that needs the raid group to be stacked(for 2x HR, even though the change was suppose to fix that) and that needs other output cds to be used in order to be effective. Obviously need to see 25 man raiding for first hand judgement but would trade it+AV+DF+DA for Revival.

[Floopa]

Freia, many MWs believe that we're allowed to run super low values of spirit because mastery is such a bad stat for us and haste only benefits 1 spell (it benefits it greatly, but still).