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  1. #1621
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    It's no less boring than HR > HR > HS > EF which is what we do now.
    Its the second time you gave that response and the second time someone told your that you dont just use EF without looking if you wanna max out your EF using you have to rotate it on ppl and on lower Hp ppl..

    The new rotation you dont need that.. You can just make a macro and spam it without having to target anyone almost..

    The new rotation is a lot less engaging.. And a lot more mind numbing..

  2. #1622
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    What they should do next expansion is give us a static amount of mana regen just like we had a static amount of mana in mop. They should not give us mana regen trinkets either, they should just stick to trinkets that gives int with int, absorb and heal procs.

    Both Cata and mop was amazing whilst in blue gear and it was really easy for a good player to stand out as the bad ones was oom 3mins into any given fight.
    I honestly thought this was what they were going for, when I first saw the static mana pools. I don't really understand why they don't.
    "Quack, quack, Mr. Bond."

  3. #1623
    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    I honestly thought this was what they were going for, when I first saw the static mana pools. I don't really understand why they don't.
    So we take away spirit as a stat completely?

  4. #1624
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    So we take away spirit as a stat completely?
    Wouldn't that make gearing more boring, because all healers would care about is haste breakpoints and straight throughput based gearing instead of gearing to a personal preference Spirit level?

    I don't think they need to take out scaling regen; they just need to tone down the power of smart heals and absorbs and passive healing and raid cooldowns. That would be enough to make healing more of a skill based decision making role instead of migrating too far to being a DPS style rotation.

  5. #1625
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarry View Post
    Its the second time you gave that response and the second time someone told your that you dont just use EF without looking if you wanna max out your EF using you have to rotate it on ppl and on lower Hp ppl..

    The new rotation you dont need that.. You can just make a macro and spam it without having to target anyone almost..

    The new rotation is a lot less engaging.. And a lot more mind numbing..
    It's a little less engaging and a little less mind numbing.

    I agree that the new play is probably going to be boring. I won't agree that the current play is anything more than only slightly better.

  6. #1626
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    I don't think they need to take out scaling regen; they just need to tone down the power of smart heals and absorbs and passive healing and raid cooldowns. That would be enough to make healing more of a skill based decision making role instead of migrating too far to being a DPS style rotation.
    Giving players more and more regen just means they have to design encounters around players having more and more mana. How can you challenge healers if they can't run out of mana? Make them have to heal faster, of course! Which is what always happens. Instead of people hovering safely around 70-80% for most of a fight, we see everyone constantly at 100%, with absorb classes spamming like mad to lower the chance that someone will die form that next insane income of burst damage.

    With a design like this, you basically have to make single-target damage so deadly that it will kill anyone who isn't topped off, and may even kill them even if they're topped off if they're not immediately healed after taking damage, and all aoe damage naturally has to either be both sustained and extremely deadly, or just so deadly that anyone who isn't topped off for subsequent volleys will die outright. The same model without smart heals just means you assign healers or watch everyone pile (over)heals on top of the same person at the same time, every time someone takes damage - and then you keep doing that for the entire fight because you can't run out of mana anyway and the encounters are designed so that if you don't do this then people will die.

    I haven't healed an expansion where this didn't happen, and it makes the last tiers really ass.

    Obviously, removing regen scaling has a bunch of its own problems, but these are easy to design around so that there wouldn't have to be the need to spam mindlessly any more in later tiers than in earlier tiers.

    Anyway, I don't expect it's ever going to happen. They can't even decide if they want to remove hit rating or not, so they're not gonna be touching something as intrinsic to what it means to be a healer in WoW as scaling mana regen.
    "Quack, quack, Mr. Bond."

  7. #1627
    Deleted
    Next expansion I'd say definatly this rediculous situation healing has gotten into has to change. having a "rotation" as a healer as if damage is so predictable is stupid, the whole "atonement, fistweaving thing" is a good concept but sadly the numbers are extremely overtuned. It shouldn't be something that does so much for what little you do for it, i mean smiting gives extra raid dps (as minimal as it sometimes is) with healing. Absorbs should just be scaled down also since those classes without get shot in the foot so much by them. In this current state of the game, I'd personally love to see a 10 man raid of a resto druid, resto shaman and a holy priest/mw monk go in and do heroic progression. See the difference the game is with little to no absorbs, I bet the fights are a lot more close cutting than current progression shows

  8. #1628
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    Wouldn't that make gearing more boring, because all healers would care about is haste breakpoints and straight throughput based gearing instead of gearing to a personal preference Spirit level?
    I dont see why that would make it boring, you would still have 4 stats to chose from: int, haste, crit and mastery.

    If the level 45 talents goes live the way they are atm ill be reforging out of every single point of spirit I have in my gear. I'll be going for full mastery then haste to a certian point and if I still have excess spirit (which I will have) ill reforge it into crit. Spirit does nothing "interesting" to the current formula or the one we are expecting in 5.4. Currently everyone have from 12-18k spirit and they decided their spirit from personal preferances but the exact same thing can be said about other stats.

    If Blizzard were to remove mana regen entirely from items everything would be a lot easier to balance and the damage the raid bosses does to the raid would not have to increase so much with each tier.

    Trinkets (and legendary meta) in particular fucks up the balance between classes, just look at monks. In 5.4 who ever gets the new mana regen trinket which effect is reduced each time you heal will be the dominating factor for who tops the meters. I can easily see myself do 20% more healing than an equally skilled paladin if I had that trinket because it regenerates so much mana.

  9. #1629
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    Trinkets (and legendary meta) in particular fucks up the balance between classes, just look at monks. In 5.4 who ever gets the new mana regen trinket which effect is reduced each time you heal will be the dominating factor for who tops the meters. I can easily see myself do 20% more healing than an equally skilled paladin if I had that trinket because it regenerates so much mana.
    You mean the one that loses like 6 stacks in one Holy Radiance?

  10. #1630
    Deleted
    Yes I'm pretty sure thats a bug.

  11. #1631
    Few things:

    1) Regarding mana regen gearing: Not having more regen with gear would make Haste extremely unattractive as a stat, assuming that healing is still mana-limited. One possible solution for next expansion (since I know our brains are already going there) would be to give us the mage treatment, and have Haste increase both mana regen and casting speed.

    However that's a lot of gear homogenization assuming we get rid of avoidance (for tanks), hit and expertise (for DPS), and spirit (for healers) and bake the avoidance and mana regen in as passives. Would it make sense and simplify the numbers? Sure, I think that having 3 stats (crit, haste, mastery) for all classes actually makes a lot of sense. But now the only thing that separates gearing would be armor class.

    2) Regarding DPS-weaving. I think actually the monk model is not a bad idea. Where DPS costs significant amounts of mana, does do non-trivial DPS, and does significantly less healing. The problem is right now, Monks have a filler (soothing mist) that is meant for max healing and no DPS. Discs do not, their only filler is Atonement right now, and that needs to change with Atonement becoming a baseline but optional filler that costs mana and does more DPS, but less healing.

    That leaves a question, though, what will be their filler? IIRC, Blizzard tried making a non-atonement filler which was the original spirit shell (basically a cast-time "heal" that will absorb instead of heal). And it was a dismal failure.

  12. #1632
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    Yes I'm pretty sure thats a bug.
    Chances are its been changed all together, casting spells doesn't seem to effect it anymore, it just starts off with 20 stacks and loses 1 per second over its 20 second duration.

    EDIT: Nevermind spells do indeed still reduce its stacks, but atm it reduces 1 stack per second if you don't cast anything

  13. #1633
    So I'm not sure how viable the SH build is, as many have discussed. One concern I have with going mastery>haste>crit>spirit is that if you aren't hitting your reduced HS/judgment religiously on CD, the reduction the haste is giving you becomes somewhat wasted. Of course in practice still to a rotation can be very difficult, especially if someone needs a little extra TLC.

    One thing I've noticed with SH, it really has poor synergy with the courageous meta, since most anything you'd cast during the proc will likely already have 1-2 stacks of SH, and have the mana benefit of SH wasted. That said, the gains may be better than nothing, although I am willing to bet the mana saved from the meta with SH build is reduced significantly. I considered using the haste meta to experiement, but I'm not sure how well this would work. Maybe if judgment had some sort of atonement component to it that was still subject to mastery, but it won't happen. Either way you're incredibly gimped with SH. For me the low spirit SH build feels like a really shitty monk that can't recover mana as well. All 3 talents really feel like trash to me, especially when you start comparing them to other healers. It feels like I'm healing with my hands tied.
    Last edited by xiloclipse; 2013-07-23 at 02:19 AM.

  14. #1634

    [Holy] Your plans for 5.4

    Curious what you specifically plan on doing in 5.4 with your gemming, reforgeing etc, I imagine a lot will still change but it seems at this point there is a pretty decent amount of concrete laid for the spec.

    I personally am still going to stick to a spirit heavy build leaning towards mastery over haste.

  15. #1635
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by xiloclipse View Post
    All 3 talents really feel like trash to me, especially when you start comparing them to other healers. It feels like I'm healing with my hands tied.
    Theres nothing wrong with our talents, well maybe EF but the other two talents are both really strong. It is our base spells that are terrible.

  16. #1636
    They should un-nerf Mastery scaling, now that they've determined that it was actually EF they didn't like.

  17. #1637
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    Theres nothing wrong with our talents, well maybe EF but the other two talents are both really strong. It is our base spells that are terrible.
    Without over-healing EF is our strongest heal rotationally still. Per cast it is the same as Sacred Shield (which should scare you). We weren't OP before the Mastery nerf, but they nerfed anyway, and the buffs to our other tier 45 talents still don't beat the nerfed EF. I think some people here are going to be shocked when they start seeing what the meters look like during the 25man testing from highly skilled guilds.

  18. #1638
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    Quote Originally Posted by bouchbagette View Post
    Without over-healing EF is our strongest heal rotationally still. Per cast it is the same as Sacred Shield (which should scare you). We weren't OP before the Mastery nerf, but they nerfed anyway, and the buffs to our other tier 45 talents still don't beat the nerfed EF. I think some people here are going to be shocked when they start seeing what the meters look like during the 25man testing from highly skilled guilds.
    The chances of EF not overhealing are slim in a 25m situation, so that makes EF weak.

  19. #1639
    Quote Originally Posted by Absintheminded View Post
    They should un-nerf Mastery scaling, now that they've determined that it was actually EF they didn't like.
    Can agree with this, although I seriously want to less absorbs in raids. I think Paladins just need better spread healing, but it's hard to do that this late in the expansion. What else do you think Paladins short fall on?

  20. #1640
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    Can agree with this, although I seriously want to less absorbs in raids. I think Paladins just need better spread healing, but it's hard to do that this late in the expansion. What else do you think Paladins short fall on?
    DPS

    I'm only half joking. I wish all healers got something similar to... well, maybe not atonement, more like eminence, but obviously appropriate for the spec. With a disc and a mistweavers in 10s it feels like raiding with an extra dps.
    "Quack, quack, Mr. Bond."

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