(Speculation) Sylvanas according Lor'themar's sound files

[Underverse]

Dark rangers new class?

Corpses come from invasion of orgrimmar, so they're both horde and alliance?

Make it happen!

[Combatbutler]

Plus - Isn't Lor'Themar some conceited pencil pusher that calls himself a "ranger"? Why would he join a high-risk battle with the possibility of dying. What then would his people do if their regent-lord is dead? Doesn't sound like the self-sacrificial type to me (but all BEs aren't anyways)

You don't know much about him do you?

---------- Post added 2013-06-21 at 05:04 PM ----------

So in short, she says: "If you want our support, we need you to support us."
And that makes her evil?

She knows they just waged civil war, she knows many of their troops are still wounded and she still demands troops right now, even though it threatens the safety of Quel'thalas.

This more or less destroys her relations with the blood elven Leadership. Lor'themar being snide and rude towards Sylvanas is just payback she deserves.

[Wildberry]

It sounded silly 5 years ago and it sounds silly now.
Wait.. wrong word..
It's not silly, it's just not based on facts; it is based on the: "All zombies are evil in other IP's, Sylvanas is a zombie and therefore evil!"-thought.

No, it's not following that train of thought at all, it's based off the fact that there is pretty much no difference between Sylvanas and the Lich King and hasn't been for a while, Garrosh was right about that, try reading sometime before you accuse someone of not basing their opinions off from facts. (For the record what "Fact" was there that would place Sylvanas as "Chaotic Good" as you said?)

So in short, she says: "If you want our support, we need you to support us."
And that makes her evil?

No she says, and I quote:
" Do you think I will tolerate such cowardice? I would warn you: those who do not stand with the Forsaken stand against them. And those who stand against the Forsaken will not stand long."

After his people suffered a devastating assualt by the Scourge wiping away most of their population, some of his people splintering away because of their refusal to siphon demonic magic and after all of that a betrayal which led to a civil war. It's completely understandable that he didn't want to go, he had soldiers in infirmaries from the most recent conflict, blow after blow had been delivered to Silvermoon and she demands more.

After 5 years these "Sylvanas will turn evil and we kill her next patch!"-threads become boring.

Boredom with a certain topic doesn't excuse false accusations.

[tenzing21]

ANYMORE???? When ANY of the Windrunner sisters knew shame? They are a poisonous family. And I don't like any of them. Jaina just had settled with the neutrality of the Kirin Tor. Another of Garrosh's spies use Dalaran to steal the bell the Nelves just stole (hypocrisy much?), and Vereesa is right at her shoulder throwing shit at the fan.
People say that Alleria is different, but I bet she will screw things over the moment she resurfaces.

This pretty is much the complete opposite of what has actually transpired on Azeroth, that I have to wonder if you are trolling. Sylvanas was made to serve the lich king, she broke away and started a faction devoted to fighting those who had fought her, over a reason she had no control over, so, um... yeah.

[TheDangerZone]

But, the point guys, like, where??

Why the hell did you turn this into another "IS SYLVANAS/THE FORSAKEN EVIL?" thread? I love those, but come on! this was just about speculation on a specific lore point.

Way to derail it guys.

[zito]

No, it's not following that train of thought at all, it's based off the fact that there is pretty much no difference between Sylvanas and the Lich King and hasn't been for a while

There is a big difference, if you read her shot story and lore you would see that. She was planning to off herself after the lich king died because she didn't give a damn about her people but the valkry changed her mind and gave her a 2nd (3rd) chance and she came back to stop garrosh suicide attempt (with her people) to get into gilneas.

Not to mention she isn't forcing anyone to be her servant. If you pay attention to the starter zone she doesn't mind slave anyone but other forsaken try and convince newborn forsaken that they have a 2nd chance as a forsaken instead of their old lives. If they don't want to they just off themselves.

She is a cruel bitch true but her actions are for good intentions unlike the LK who he wanted to kill everything.

As for the dead bodys during the SoO they are dead. There is no way around that, risen bodys to help against the war is better then dead bodys doing nothing. That is just her logic. Lorthemars logic is to respect the dead and give them a proper burial.

No she says, and I quote:
" Do you think I will tolerate such cowardice? I would warn you: those who do not stand with the Forsaken stand against them. And those who stand against the Forsaken will not stand long."

This was before the LK died and she didn't give a damn who she had to step threw to get her revenge and the other forsaken she liberated wanted the same thing.

[Wildberry]

There is a big difference, if you read her shot story and lore you would see that. She was planning to off herself after the lich king died because she didn't give a damn about her people but the valkry changed her mind and gave her a 2nd (3rd) chance and she came back to stop garrosh suicide attempt (with her people) to get into gilneas.

You know why she changed her mind (I did read it by the way) because she saw what was awaiting her in death.

Not to mention she isn't forcing anyone to be her servant. If you pay attention to the starter zone she doesn't mind slave anyone but other forsaken try and convince newborn forsaken that they have a 2nd chance as a forsaken instead of their old lives. If they don't want to they just off themselves.

I suggest you redo WPL, also look what happened to the Forsaken that didn't join her.

She is a cruel bitch true but her actions are for good intentions unlike the LK who he wanted to kill everything.

Plague bombing a civilian city is a good intention? That's definitely not even remotely close to wanting to kill everything right?

As for the dead bodys during the SoO they are dead. There is no way around that, risen bodys to help against the war is better then dead bodys doing nothing. That is just her logic. Lorthemars logic is to respect the dead and give them a proper burial.

Remember her line "There is no joy in this curse." She seems really eager to inflict that upon others now.

This was before the LK died and she didn't give a damn who she had to step threw to get her revenge and the other forsaken she liberated wanted the same thing.

Yea, she didn't. She managed to piss off the only group in the Horde that didn't mistrust her, which ended up biting her in the ass during the Conversation in Grommash Hold (Tides of War) and from the looks of it SoO. Regardless wanting revenge doesn't warrant forcing a nation which has nearly been destroyed multiple times over the course of 5 years to assist you in your War effort.

[Verdugo]

Remember her line "There is no joy in this curse." She seems really eager to inflict that upon others now.

Obsolete voice file, they should have removed it ages ago.

[Anthaion]

of course lets not all Forget the Argent-Apothecary Judkins

"I once worked for the so-called "Banshee-Queen", Sylvanas, as an apothecary. I used to admire her, but something's changed within her. She's not herself anymore.

I broke my vows with the Forsaken and joined the Crusade. Now, I use my knowledge of alchemy to seek a counter-plague agent. And the Plaguewood is the perfect place to do so."

[checking facts]

There is if you count the fact that they outright kill any newly raised undead that don't agree with them. This has been confirmed in the cdev and the person who wrote it also stated "returning to the grave" is through forceful violence. It's all about what you consider free will.

that's not true. as we've seen in the undead starting zone, you aren't forced to join the forsaken or die. you have the choice of joining the forsaken, not joining them, or die. the forsaken are not slaves. they van leave the forsaken to pursue other goals if they wish. argent apothecary judkins left the forsaken to join the argent crusade. in the first levels, you see exactly how the process works:

1 - you chose to join the forsaken? awesome
2 - you chose not to join the forsaken, but you won't fight against us either? such a shame, but no biggie, we understand
3 - you chose to rebel and fight against the forsaken? DIE MAGGOT!

[delus]

that's not true. as we've seen in the undead starting zone, you aren't forced to join the forsaken or die. you have the choice of joining the forsaken, not joining them, or die. the forsaken are not slaves. they van leave the forsaken to pursue other goals if they wish. argent apothecary judkins left the forsaken to join the argent crusade. in the first levels, you see exactly how the process works:

1 - you chose to join the forsaken? awesome
2 - you chose not to join the forsaken, but you won't fight against us either? such a shame, but no biggie, we understand
3 - you chose to rebel and fight against the forsaken? DIE MAGGOT!

That is true. Go read the cdev response. And as for Judkins, we don't know when he left.

[checking facts]

That is true. Go read the cdev response. And as for Judkins, we don't know when he left.

the Cdev response was incomplete. it was working in a binary setup where you can only be alliance or horde, but that setup is oversimplified and just isn't true. many undead leave the forsaken to join neutral organizations, like the argent crusade, the venture co. or even the darkmoon faire lol

what the Cdev meant was that you can't go back to being their enemy. if you choose alliance (or scourge), they'll send you back to your grave. but if you decide not to be their enemy, they won't force you to fight for them. this same answer from the Cdev you are mentioning also says that "Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture". the forsaken adore free will, and if you don't want to chill around in the undercity or join sylvanas' army, they're cool with that.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5208785474

[delus]

the Cdev response was incomplete. it was working in a binary setup where you can only be alliance or horde, but that setup is oversimplified and just isn't true. many undead leave the forsaken to join neutral organizations, like the argent crusade, the venture co. or even the darkmoon faire lol

what the Cdev meant was that you can't go back to being their enemy. if you choose alliance (or scourge), they'll send you back to your grave. but if you decide not to be their enemy, they won't force you to fight for them. this same answer from the Cdev you are mentioning also says that "Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture". the forsaken adore free will, and if you don't want to chill around in the undercity or join sylvanas' army, they're cool with that.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5208785474

Yes, it is all how you percieve free will. they will kill you if you don't join them. You are free to refuse and you are free to get killed.
After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave.

[checking facts]

Yes, it is all how you percieve free will. they will kill you if you don't join them. You are free to refuse and you are free to get killed.
After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave.

ok. explain why the hundreds of undead that work for the venture co. aren't dead.

after that, explain why the forsaken did nothing to kill lilian voss after she refused to join them. all they said was "what a shame, she didn't wanna join us ". that's far from an ultimatum. plain and simply, Cdev put that answer on a binary situation, where you are either alliance or horde. you can choose to be neither.

---------- Post added 2013-06-21 at 10:43 PM ----------

in fact, here's some in-game quest text about this exact situation:

http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:The_Wakening

You've done well, <class>. As you can see, not all of us have resigned to our fates. I'm glad to see that you're at least willing to work.

Valred will be a valuable asset to the Forsaken. As for the other two... there is not much we can do. We cannot force them to join us.

[delus]

ok. explain why the hundreds of undead that work for the venture co. aren't dead.

after that, explain why the forsaken did nothing to kill lilian voss after she refused to join them. all they said was "what a shame, she didn't wanna join us ". that's far from an ultimatum. plain and simply, Cdev put that answer on a binary situation, where you are either alliance or horde. you can choose to be neither.

---------- Post added 2013-06-21 at 10:43 PM ----------

in fact, here's some in-game quest text about this exact situation:

http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:The_Wakening

Because all of those undead were from the previous generation. After raising undead herself she quickly begins to refine her methods. Hence the cdev binary answer.

[checking facts]

Because all of those undead were from the previous generation. After raising undead herself she quickly begins to refine her methods. Hence the cdev binary answer.

no. those quests are about new generation forsaken, raised by sylvanas' val'kyr.

[ghostblade]

She forced his people into a war they could barely field the numbers for while they're still culturally reeling from the events at the Sunwell, held the Ghostlands hostage to get her way, made it clear that any leftover feelings of friendship were gone and that she only sees him as another tool to use. Things between them are bad enough that when she tried to get him to back her at a summit in Orgrimmar, Lor'themar indirectly supported Garrosh just to spite her.

Also, it looks like he, Baine, and Vol'jin are the faces of the revolution. Sylvanas can't risk getting the Horde rebels out for her blood because she's pissed off at Lor'themar for mouthing off at her in the middle of a siege when he's apparently her superior in the rebellion's power structure (such as it is). All that would do would get her killed, get the Forsaken put down on the Horde's list after Orgimmar is secured, and give the Alliance an immediate upper hand in the Eastern Kingdoms front.

Sylvanas is a hateful, spite-driven jerk, but she hasn't been written with that level of stupidity for a long time now.

so the current rebellion power structure is Lorewise: vol'jin & the player as leader ( reason, you two started the Rebellion with the Blood oath)- Baine & lor'themar - Sylvanas - rebellion commanders - rest of the troops.

[delus]

no. those quests are about new generation forsaken, raised by sylvanas' val'kyr.

Those quests are and if you would have followed the story all the way through into WPL you would understand that her methodology has changed since the very beginning.

[checking facts]

Those quests are and if you would have followed the story all the way through into WPL you would understand that her methodology has changed since the very beginning.

I did follow those quests. nothing changed. she raises people, they are kinda nuts, she sends them to kill alliance. afterwards when they calm down, they can make the choice, that exists.

also: I'm a pre and post-cata loremaster. you name a quest and odds are that I've already done it (and I always read quest text).

[delus]

I did follow those quests. nothing changed. she raises people, they are kinda nuts, she sends them to kill alliance. afterwards when they calm down, they can make the choice, that exists.

also: I'm a pre and post-cata loremaster. you name a quest and odds are that I've already done it (and I always read quest text).

Good for you! Anyways, cdev pretty much explained it. You are either with them or against them. You join up or you are returned to the grave. Free will and all.