Cairne, the sad and betrayed Tauren

[Breccia]

"Baine Bloodhoof: And for what? What did the Horde gain from such actions? Garrosh is a fool, and a betrayer. I should have killed him long ago, when he betrayed my father."

First of all:
1) I don't think Baine can take Garrosh in a fair fight. Cairne could, but not Baine.
2) Baine is allowed to remember the events however he wants. Perspective is shot when it comes to your family members being murdered.
3) Baine's sense of vengeance requires some form of consistency. He spared Magatha, but killed one of her sons. He can explain his reasons all he wants, they still don't make any sense.
4) And if it upset him this badly, why did he lock step with Garrosh up until 5.1? I'm not raised to be an honorable warrior or anything, but if my boss were to get in a fight with my father, during which my father died, I'd look for work elsewhere the very next day.

Baine is not reconning anything. He is, however, a horribly written character with no sense of logic or consistency. The tauren deserve better.

We miss you, Cairne.

[Deleted]

Maybe, just maybe he betrayed his father not in the fight, but for his actions throughout MoP disgracing what he and the horde stood for?

I could be looking too much into it though.

[Zulkhan]

It is because everything that has ever happened in the horde is just garrosh's fault!

And this comment? Which usefulness have in the thread apart marking you as an Alliance fanboy?

I wouldn't say it is the same as holy magic. It's a virtue to be upheld--a source of strength in the metaphorical sense, rather than the literal like holy magic.

Yeah, you got the right point. In Warcraft universe honor is generally valued, but there are factions that don't, or simply don't care about it in so respectful and unbending terms. Even the conception of honor between Alliance and Horde, while still "high", is a bit different, mostly because the Alliance one is more lawful, while in the Horde is more neutral or even chaotic, which is the case of orcs and Darkspear trolls mostly. Still, the fact that the blood elves has been painted as those that did the necessary thing for survive, despite morals and old traditions, and effectively managed to go ahead, is a prove that the game sometimes value questionable actions for the greater good, not just turning them all bad because they forsake their "honor". And the Forsaken are even a more blatant prove, aswell as Goblins, that put profit before everything.

First of all:
1) I don't think Baine can take Garrosh in a fair fight. Cairne could, but not Baine.

Baine is not my favorite character indeed, but I seriously think that you're badly understimating Baine in my opinion; the guy is Cairne's son after all, and while Cairne was indeed more experienced, Baine compensate it by being younger, and so stronger and more energic. He's also pretty confident about himself, he's not sincerely afraid at the thought of dueling with Garrosh or Malkorok, and I have no reasons to think that is all abundant and overrated self-confidence. Probably Baine wouldn't be able to dominate the match like his father (also because the Garrosh that dueled with Cairne was a lot weaker, hot-headed and inexperienced of the current Garrosh) but indeed would be a very close fight with both of them, in which would be very hard supposing a winner.

[Dreknar20]

No, not only times of war prove the faith that your people have in you. Some orcs were unhappy by the passive stand of Thrall about the whole matter of Durotar, Ashenvale, the relationship with the humans and so on, still he never recoursed to subtle tyranny for "keep in check" the discontent. Different leaders are different.

Because Thrall never had much reason to.
Sure people were arguing for more agressive solutions, but they didnt act on it. No groups or Orcs said "fuck you Thrall and your peace treaty" and then ran off to attack the Night Elves. But if they did you dont think Thrall would have brought down the hammer on them? For not doing what he thinks they should?

Most leaders would use force to quell major discontent. Because agreeing to their demands possibly makes the leader then have to do things they dont want or believe in. And if your doing what others want and not what you believe is right what does that say about a leader?

[Durandro]

And this comment? Which usefulness have in the thread apart marking you as an Alliance fanboy?

I agree with him. Does that make me an Alliance fanboy, despite the fact I play Horde? Or are you just throwing around insults now because you lack an argument?

All the bad things that have happened recently to the Horde are due to Garrosh's incompetence and blind unthinking aggression. The Horde is lucky Ogrimmar wasn't raized to the ground by the Dragonflights after they attacked the Blues and stole the focusing iris. The Horde is lucky they have any friends left among the Pandaren after tearing the Vale to pieces. The Horde was lucky to have any presence left in Dalaran prior to the purge after destroying Theramore and killing the former Archmage. There's only so far good will for former deeds will take you.

Which is why Garrosh is going down. Hard.

[Dreknar20]

, you got the right point. In Warcraft universe honor is generally valued, but there are factions that don't, or simply don't care about it in so respectful and unbending terms.

Yet "honor" itself is an incredibly vauge and broad term. There are many different levels to it.

For example some would say melee combat is true combat and fighting at range is cowardly or dishonorable.
For more real life examples - Battle of Stirling Bridge, the English crossed the bridge assuming if the Scots had any honor in them they would wait before attacking. Of course the Scots promptly told them to take their honor and shove it up their ass.
When countries are involved in a guerilla war, there are many military personal that say such guerilla fighters are dishonorable because they arnt using conventional warfare

---------- Post added 2013-06-24 at 07:35 PM ----------

There's only so far good will for former deeds will take you.

Yet the Horde is not some single entity.
Its made up of hundreds of thousands of people who all did different things for different reasons.

[Thage]

Yet "honor" itself is an incredibly vauge and broad term. There are many different levels to it.

For example some would say melee combat is true combat and fighting at range is cowardly or dishonorable.
For more real life examples - Battle of Stirling Bridge, the English crossed the bridge assuming if the Scots had any honor in them they would wait before attacking. Of course the Scots promptly told them to take their honor and shove it up their ass.
When countries are involved in a guerilla war, there are many military personal that say such guerilla fighters are dishonorable because they arnt using conventional warfare

Put another way: Honor's a great virtue when you have the luxury of aspiring to it. It's the stuff heroes are made of and the fuel to many a high-fantasy adventure. But when there's a rock on your chest and a hard place on your back pushing against each other, it's also the one that tends to get set aside first in the name of survival. As Javik, from ME3, says: "Stand among the corpses of a slain people, and ask them if honor matters. Their silence is your answer." (paraphrased and likely missing a few words).

[Combatbutler]

Put another way: Honor's a great virtue when you have the luxury of aspiring to it. It's the stuff heroes are made of and the fuel to many a high-fantasy adventure. But when there's a rock on your chest and a hard place on your back pushing against each other, it's also the one that tends to get set aside first in the name of survival. As Javik, from ME3, says: "Stand among the corpses of a slain people, and ask them if honor matters. Their silence is your answer." (paraphrased and likely missing a few words).

Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask them if honor matters.

Sorry I had to ;P

[Dreknar20]

As Javik, from ME3, says: "Stand among the corpses of a slain people, and ask them if honor matters. Their silence is your answer." (paraphrased and likely missing a few words).

think another relevant quote would be
"There is no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy" - Lincoln

[Thimagryn]

Honor is very much a virtue respected in Warcraft. There has always been an underlying theme of 'good' vs 'evil', and that has slowly changed over time to 'Honourable' and 'Dishonourable'. The Horde used to be the major 'Evil', but we're shown through the events of Warcraft 3 and various retcons, that the Horde was mostly misguided, and they were not so much evil as dishnourable (resorting to using forbidden magics, slaughtering women and children, assassination). Thrall is an honourable character, and he would not resort to such tactics. It's why a core saying of the current Horde is 'Blood and Honor'.

Garrosh in MoP has been removed of honor. He's become a despicable villain, and the epitome of evil in this expansion. I would say him 'betraying' Cairne is still a part of the smear campaign Blizzard is running to push the point of how bad this guy is. To believe that Baine is simply saying this out of hatred for Garrosh is shallow writing. Baine is probably the most collective character in the story. There's no reason for me to believe he would say something so specifically opposed to his own previous conclusions out of contempt.

[Zulkhan]

I agree with him. Does that make me an Alliance fanboy, despite the fact I play Horde? Or are you just throwing around insults now because you lack an argument?

I'm not the one that lack arguments normally, on the contrary, people that just spit thoughtless sentences because they have to justify their biased are those that lack arguments, without considering that was a random comment with not even a slight connection with the thread, so a ridicolous and unecessary off-topic.

So, in few words, you think that all the Horde should be put to death or chained like dogs because of a tyrant that not only used subtle police worth of the Nazi's Gestapo for keep in check the discontent, that could have been able to spread and fuck all Garrosh's war campaign, but also worked behind the back of his own people in countless occasions, working on a megalomaniac plan of world domination with mostly a bunch of like-minded zealots faithfully and unquestionably on his side?

If this is what you truly think, yeah, you're no better than him, and the fact that you're a Horde player just make it even more laughable.

The Horde is lucky Ogrimmar wasn't raized to the ground by the Dragonflights after they attacked the Blues and stole the focusing iris.

This is funny, because is excatly a Blue Dragon that convinced Jaina that doing such a thing was even worse than Arthas's actions in Stratholme, understanding not only that the whole responsibility for the the steal of the Focusing Iris and the usage of the mana bomb was all tied to Garrosh and his lackyes, but that what Jaina was going to do was all due to her mind fucked by the arcane magic, and that such an act was wrong and horrible. Seems that Kalecgos had more understanding than you on the matter.

The Horde is lucky they have any friends left among the Pandaren after tearing the Vale to pieces

Nope, from the 5.3 has been clearly stated to Taran Zhu (and so the rest of the Pandaren) that Garrosh was a tyrant and ignored completely the will of the Horde's members, doing all the shit that he wanted with no one able to stop him, if not with "physical opposition" (and the Rebellion exists for this). At that point, Garrosh was marked as a common threat in which anyone was ready to fight for stop him, not much different by what respresented the Lich King in WotLK.

The Horde was lucky to have any presence left in Dalaran prior to the purge after destroying Theramore and killing the former Archmage

Theramore was not Kirin Tor property, there was just two of their former members living there, and they helped Jaina only for "friendship" we can say, still only defensively, because they didn't want to break their neutrality (regardless the fact they broke it anyway, but I guess the whole matter of the missing Focusing Iris put them in alert and nervousness) but Theramore had nothing to do with them, especially considering that was an Alliance military target that partecipated in the war against the Horde, so was not a mad and evil action attacking it.
What has been cowardly and murderous has been the usage of the mana bomb, in which the full responsibility has been of Garrosh's master plan, with the orcs forming the "strike team" for kill Jaina and eventual survivors brutally (and rightfully indeed) slaughtered.

About Rhonin, no one forced him to go to actively help Theramore against the Horde's offensive, no one searched him to Dalaran for kill him, was all his own responsibility, he could have died even without the mana bomb, and the Kirin Tor knew this. He was responsible of his own life and actions.

So no, i don't think is ME that lack arguments, but YOUR arguments that are shallow half truths due to big holes in knowledge about how the events effectively worked. And I'll give you an amazing scoop, there are people able to judge individuals and situations in a reasonable way, not randomly mark a whole faction "bad" regardless of circumstances and fuck that.

[Deleted]

Baine's quote on the PTR is a bit strange indeed, but what if he refers to some promise between Garrosh and Cairne (that we don't know of?), maybe a promise of keeping the Horde together or being a good leader. Cairne was old and wise, he could've known a lot of different things.

[Thimagryn]

Baine's quote on the PTR is a bit strange indeed, but what if he refers to some promise between Garrosh and Cairne (that we don't know of?), maybe a promise of keeping the Horde together or being a good leader. Cairne was old and wise, he could've known a lot of different things.

Then it's ill communicated that Baine knows something we don't, and we're left to interpret the true meaning of what he's saying until something is properly explained (or not explained, and we're left to accept it as is). It's not a good thing when many people are seeing this as a strange thing to say.

[Florena]

Tweet from Kosak today "Is Baine really a reliable historian about this fact? At this moment?" Seems to suggest Baine is letting his emotions get the better of him when remembering what went down.

[Zaelsino]

Tweet from Kosak today "Is Baine really a reliable historian about this fact? At this moment?" Seems to suggest Baine is letting his emotions get the better of him when remembering what went down.

That comes up short when you consider Baine does have this knowledge though.

[Florena]

That comes up short when you consider Baine does have this knowledge though.

He has the knowledge but is letting his anger and regret get the better of him.

[Zulkhan]

Because Thrall never had much reason to.
Sure people were arguing for more agressive solutions, but they didnt act on it. No groups or Orcs said "fuck you Thrall and your peace treaty" and then ran off to attack the Night Elves. But if they did you dont think Thrall would have brought down the hammer on them? For not doing what he thinks they should?

It's almost impossible to say, but a thing is sure, a good leader is also someone able to prevent such events in the first place. Yeah, it's obvious that not every orc in Durotar will blindly love and trust you in everything that you do, but still people will follow and have faith in you if you give proves that you're at least a reliable leader in which the population can always put their faith in trying times, which, for me, is the main reason for why even the slightest sign of rebellion never occured during Thrall's reign.

Garrosh doesn't give this same feeling of reliability. He's charismatic but this works only when people don't have reasons for doubt your work, and he proved to not be competent and reliable when discontent occured; because he didn't have to face a rebellion to put down by the beginning, he had to face nothing more than discontent, not even vocal opposition, heck, Malkorok even carefully watched the orcs that didn't "cheered" along the other Kor'kron. This obviously mean that Garrosh, apart his growing egocentric attitude, had some solid concern that he wouldn't have be able to maintain in check the situation, and so recoursed to the iron fist for prevent any eventual problem, using nothing but strength and fear.

Yet "honor" itself is an incredibly vauge and broad term. There are many different levels to it.

Well indeed, if put the concept of honor in real life and human history the confusion about the personal concept of honor in every culture would be enormous. But in WoW the concept is a lot more defined, despite of personal views about the word or the fact that a lot of people don't simply care about it, or don't care that much. And the concept of honor that Garrosh have is....hollow, yeah have some boundaries but are all concerned about the fact of killing your opponent with a weapon in hand, and when the opponent have that weapon, would be preferable that his demise would be glorious and done in the more exhibisionist way.

Then everything else is allowed. There are little terms of interpretation in this concept if not an exploitation of the word for personal vanity, pleasure and glory. In a word, selfish.

[Aquamonkey]

He has the knowledge but is letting his anger and regret get the better of him.

We have enough characters going crazy and having bouts with the Sha of Amnesia already.

[artemishunter1]

"Baine Bloodhoof: And for what? What did the Horde gain from such actions? Garrosh is a fool, and a betrayer. I should have killed him long ago, when he betrayed my father."

I mean, really? Really?

This is one of those moments I wish I never ever attempted to get into WoW lore. Because of shit like this. The whole dialogue between Vol'Jin and Baine is in the front page, and it's a pretty standard talk of "we are going to fight, oh man, and they are going to fight too, damn". Up till this part.

The thing that grinds my gear is the fact that Garrosh never ever betrayed Cairne. Never. And this is the thing that makes me kinda nerd angry when I see it: people in forums openly hate Garrosh not even because of his actions in MoP, not for Theramore, but because he betrayed Cairne. Betrayed Cairne. Okay, so here is the story. Sit down, story time.



After Garrosh was chosen to be the new Warchief, Cairne became increasingly aware of Garrosh behaviour. He realised that the change in the leadership can cause internal trouble and increased conflict with the Alliance, since Garrosh actions were usually violent and rash. However, Cairne bitterly accepted the change, even tho he didn't find it a good choice.

Things changed when Cairne received a word from Hamuul. The old druid reported, that there were casualities during a peacefull meeting of Cenarion Circle - and the attackers seemed to be sent by Garrosh. Little did Hamuul know, that the attack was set up by Twilight Hammer, and in the effort to undermine the Horde, the killers made sure it seemed like it was Garroshes assault. Cairne didn't know this fact, but assuming that Hamuuls version was true, he decided to do what he found the only way out: "Mak'Gora". A duel between Garrosh and Cairne to resolve the leadership problem.

Garrosh found it amusing that Cairne challanged him, since he didn't really realise for what reason. Feeling that rising the stakes will most likely scare the old Tauren, he said the duel will be to death - and to his suprise, Cairne accepted.

For the duel both warriors had to wear the traditional armor (basically no armor at all), and use the weapon of their choice, blessed by a shaman before the fight. Garroshes Gorehowl was blessed by Magatha Grimtotem, a grim figure in Tauren society, who tried to undermine Cairnes leadership many times before.

During the duel, Garrosh was suprised, and a bit scared, by Cairnes power and might. For the most part, he had to back off, fending himself from the attacks of Cairnes runespear. In the corner, he decided to use a dangerous, reckless move - he swung his axe with all his might, leaving himself exposed after the attack. It worked - Cairnes weapon was shattered to pieces, and his chest was wounded. However, the attack seemed to have a weird resoult, when Cairne collapsed on his knees after getting a small cut in the chest. Not thinking for a long time, Garrosh swung again, killing Cairne.

The truth was, Magatha Grimtotem, while blessing Garroshes weapon, secretly poisoned it with a mixture that disabled him after stuck. Her plan was to use Garrosh as a pawn in taking Thunder Bluff for herself - and the plan somehow worked. Cairne was dead, and Magatha attacked Thunder Bluff, believing Garrosh, knowing she helped him survive the duel, will help her.

Garrosh was not amused. Magathas poison took away his chance for a true victory or death on the ring, and made his kill unhonorable. Magatha was suprised when Garrosh replied her will all his hate, saying she is on her own now. Magathas attack was thus a failure, since Cairnes son, Baine, managed to prepare defences and push Magatha and her Grimtotem out of the Thunder Bluff.

After the events, Garrosh, alongside with Thrall, mourned Cairnes death, believing such a warrior did not deserve a death by poison. He approached Baine, trying to find any way to mend the broken fences, and feeling that he should prepare himself for another Mak'Gora. Baine, tho, blamed Magatha for the entire event, and pledged his loyality to Garrosh. Garrosh gladly accepted, suprised by young Taurens restrain and wisdom.



Story is over.

"Baine Bloodhoof: And for what? What did the Horde gain from such actions? Garrosh is a fool, and a betrayer. I should have killed him long ago, when he betrayed my father."

This one quote makes the whole point of the duel between Garrosh and Cairne completly pointless. Moreover, it absolutely retcons both the duels outcome, and Baines reaction. The word "betrayal" is extremly improper here. Draw your own conclusions, basing on the story from the "Shattering" novel.

Young and wise Tauren, previously sadly accepting the fact, that it was his father who requested the duel, and Magatha who staged his death, now believes Garrosh is the only one to blame. Baine, who was the one who threw away the nonsensical endless circle of vengeance, and decided another Mak'Gora would only make things even worse - now openly says he should have killed him back then, when ashamed Garrosh in pathetic manner tried to apologise for the loss that couldnt be undone.

Sorry for the rant, if you find it too long. But this one thing makes me cringe every time I see it. Hatred towards Garrosh based on this particular event. And seeing how Blizzard made Baine say those words, it seems I was the one who was wrong. Nothing is forbidden, everything can be retconned.

Keep this detail in mind. Duel was not to the death when Cairne requested it. Garrosh changed the rule infront of other people. Forcing Cairne either to look weak and coward among his peers or accept the change in rule. Basicly, Garrosh backed Cairne into a corner through politics. Baine feels this is the betrayal as his father did not have any intention of killing Garrosh, only challanged him for good of the horde, and only accepted the rule change because of Garrosh's politics.

[leaks]

That comes up short when you consider Baine does have this knowledge though.

Maybe I'm remembering this wrong but didn't Baine's "knowledge" of what happened come from Garrosh when he confronted him about it? How much weight is the word of Garrosh supposed to have to him at this point?