What if LFR dropped heroic blues / no tier

[MoanaLisa]

Flex is a good idea but still won't do much while LFR is still as rewarding as it is now. Flex = forming/joining a group wich will asks you to interact with other players and make you accountable for your performances or behaviors, all that for a meager improvement in Item Level.

That's great then. No, really. If the rewards are so meager then we won't need to be treated to months and months of how the best of the best--because nearly everyone is the best of the best--are forced to run it.

[DrSteveBrule]

It's not a bad idea but it's not a good idea either.

It still feels wrong to be given the option of killing bosses so easily, even if the rewards are appropriate.
Part of what made raids attractive and rewarding was witnessing it yourself.
You weren't just progressing through bosses you were progressing through the instance.
A boss stood in your way to the next wing or the next hall, deeper into the dungeon/bastion/lair.

Honestly, I preferred when Blizzard flat out nerfed previous tiers.
I bitched about it back then but man.. LFR was far worse.

[Fagatronics]

Well, it's either that or all the good players get matched together, and the bad ones have a negative experience.

Given 25 players, 5 good and 20 bad, it's better for the 5 to be slightly unhappy than the 20 to be incredibly unhappy.

Ya, I really can't agree to game design with this mentality. I think it comes down to the "give a man a fish/teach a man to fish" parable. I'm fine with new players being initially bad and learning but it seems like there's less incentive than ever for players to want to improve since regardless of their play, they will be rewarded. We swung from one extreme to the other where less than 1% of player base saw all the content to now anyone who can click a button can see it.

Not all their fault though. There's a serious lack of in-game information to learn one's class as well as the jump from lfr to normal/flex is immensely more difficult and time consuming. And lest we forget, the staggering elitism of some raiders insulting or out right refusing to help under performing players.

I think Blizz has shown they don't know how to fix WoW because they don't know what to fix. Players, raiding, difficulty, 5 mans, etc they have no idea. I expect their "solutions" like proving grounds, flex-raid, and virtual realms will ultimately fix very little. In the Q2 report I predict another fairly large dip in subs and more scrambling by Blizz to create even more features and "solutions" in an attempt to stop the hemorrhaging.

OT: Blues in lfr will only cause more friction in the volatile community. Don't do it.

[Osmeric]

Feel free to look at his post history.

What I've done is crusade against a game design that emphasizes catering to high end raiders. This is different from crusading against high end raiders, although the more entitled of those raiders may not be able to tell the difference.

[nekobaka]

Then explain the tiny exposure of Firelands that required LFR to be rushed for 4.3 instead of being released for 5.0.

The push of LFR ahead of schedule was due to a lack of non-raiding casual oriented content that Cata lacked severely being in part traced to the 1-60 revamp along with LFD greatly accelerating the gearing and burnout of dungeons. LFR being rushed out with a "good enough" loot system wasnt directly due to so little people seeing the content, it was due to so many consuming the content that wasnt raiding and raids maintained a slower long term grind with a weekly lockout that reduced chances for burnout. Blizzard already had their quest team focusing on MoP and needed something to keep players busy. Cata gutted a lot of grinds that WotLK had and pair that with less content and you have a lot of players bored looking for something new to do. The rush of LFR was a bandaid to a lack of content problem, not a lack of players seeing raids. Now that many are seeing the raids Blizzard is able to increase development into raids and gut content like five mans which a number of casuals do not like.

Why are competent raiders in LFR?

Might have something to do with Blizzards attempts to make normal raiding a guild only thing while snubbing out those who cant cut the new normal modes despite already being in a guild and raiding and using LFR as a catch all. Flex mode has a target audience and it is casuals who like raiding but got screwed with Blizzards current model of throwing players into the pit.

The game's had a reliance on good players training bad ones, and now they've stopped training them, the bad ones are going to a content that no longer requires training.

I havent stopped helping players but I have come across an increasing number of players who will only accept help in the form of carrying. There are a lot of resources out there made from experienced players and even in-game stuff from Blizzard that a player can refer to for help. I didnt become an experience and competent raider by asking for carries and I sure as hell didnt bite anyone who offered help.

It still feels wrong to be given the option of killing bosses so easily, even if the rewards are appropriate.

Personally I find dailies being far more appropriate of the LFR rewards. The carrots for LFR are out of balance in terms of effort compared to other content.

[GrieverXIII]

although the more entitled of those raiders may not be able to tell the difference.

Talk about irony.

[Osmeric]

Coming from you.

10 on the irony scale.

I think large groups of customers should be catered to.

You think a smaller group should be favored.

Who is the more entitled?

[Tweet this]

My main problem with Lfr is breeding lazy players


I just want them all to learn and flex should help them learn

By the way guys

We got rid of the LK raid model of 2 lockouts

Well... Now we have 3 (flex raid)

- - - Updated - - -

3 chances at the same loot diff ilvl

Tier bonuses will have to be not op
Trinkets also cant be op

If they are we will all run 3 times

[GrieverXIII]

I think large groups of customers should be catered to.

You think a smaller group should be favored.

Who is the more entitled?

I simply think skill and dedication should be rewarded over laziness and incompetence, like in every other fields of life.

[adorich]

I keep hearing people talk about how they dont have time to raid so they LFR

Im curious if these people would still choose the LFR route if the drops were like heroic dungeons... Heroic blues

Looking for a serious answer to this please.

I don't understand why some posters want to punish people who use LFG simply for using LFG. LFG already has less stats than normal and heroic raids. That's enough.

[Cantheal]

What if people stopped worrying about others having fun doing something that in NO WAY effected their effort to act like they are elite and above others who are getting gear that is 20 or 30 iLvL's lower than we get on heroic/normal raids....

always wonder that when see one of the COUNTLESS threads on this.

[Tweet this]

What made wow great?

Gear addiction is main thing id say.

Admit it or not gear is addicting and the only reason i learned how to play my class like elite players play

Via websites such as elitist j and now mmoc forums

Streams too now and u tube vids

So i spent time on it like it was a hobby

All for collecting gear


Lfr weakens that motivation to get better for gear

[nekobaka]

I think large groups of customers should be catered to.

You think a smaller group should be favored.

Who is the more entitled?

Easy to say when your needs fall within your perception of the majority who remain silent compared to those who are vocal which is a minority. The introduction of Flex mode shows how widely varying that group is and that easy mindless content doesnt suit all casuals. Being casual doesnt mean you are incapable of moving out of a fire, you just dont have all day to deal with those who cant or refuse to.

[Tweet this]

What if people stopped worrying about others having fun doing something that in NO WAY effected their effort to act like they are elite and above others who are getting gear that is 20 or 30 iLvL's lower than we get on heroic/normal raids....

always wonder that when see one of the COUNTLESS threads on this.

Read my post i just made. Thats the base of it all

[Osmeric]

I simply think skill and dedication should be rewarded over laziness and incompetence, like in every other fields of life.

Well, I don't make the mistake of confusing a game with real life, or thinking that imitating real life is an appropriate way to design a game. Real life doesn't have magic; why should the game mimic RL in other ways?

[MoanaLisa]

I simply think skill and dedication should be rewarded over laziness and incompetence, like in every other fields of life.

Examples of the lazy and incompetent rising to the top are to be found in every other field of life. It's a non sequitur in a field that's primarily a leisure time activity that has at best little-to-no practical real world use or meaning. For that matter, the truly lazy and incompetent in real life are very likely among those who play games twelve plus hours a day.

[Osmeric]

Easy to say when your needs fall within your perception of the majority who remain silent compared to those who are vocal which is a minority. The introduction of Flex mode shows how widely varying that group is and that easy mindless content doesnt suit all casuals. Being casual doesnt mean you are incapable of moving out of a fire, you just dont have all day to deal with those who cant or refuse to.

Well, of course it's easy for me to identify with the majority when I'm not a high end raider.

We don't yet know how successful flex mode raiding will be. If it's wildly successful, I won't argue against it, even if I don't use it. If it flops, I may have some comments.

[Tweet this]

Well, I don't make the mistake of confusing a game with real life, or thinking that imitating real life is an appropriate way to design a game. Real life doesn't have magic; why should the game mimic RL in other ways?

Ya but the game in real life is a hobby to many

[adorich]

I simply think skill and dedication should be rewarded over laziness and incompetence, like in every other fields of life.

You are rewarded with gear in normal/heroic raids that has higher stats. Wow is a game, not a "field of life."

[GrieverXIII]

What if people stopped worrying about others having fun doing something that in NO WAY effected their effort to act like they are elite and above others who are getting gear that is 20 or 30 iLvL's lower than we get on heroic/normal raids....

always wonder that when see one of the COUNTLESS threads on this.

If you've seen countless of those threads, why do you imply something nobody ever said in this one? We want to bring back incentives to do real raiding, and make some core aspects of the MMO genre rewarding again (socialisation and server communities being 2 of those). Beyond that, LFR matters little to me or most people sharing my opinion. If there was a way to feed you guys's the best gear possible without totally ruining the raiding scene, i'd say go for it ! But sadly its not possible.