View Poll Results: generally, a poll to waste time at work.

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  • I don't like hybrid burst damage > their utility

    43 38.05%
  • I don't feel this is the problem with Hybrids right now

    70 61.95%
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  1. #21
    Pandaren Monk Lulbalance's Avatar
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    Jun 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helltrixz View Post
    So you want to take dmg away from hybrids and utility away from pures? Like what, put a cd on warlock fear and increase their dmg?

    pretty absolute there.

    i wouldnt be against something like a small cd on things like fear and a damage boost in another area - coupled with a reduction to hybrid dps and better cc alternatives; the problem is pretty big and dumbing it down to that type of stuff would just make people freak out. also ofc you'd have issues in peeling for yourself in 1v1 situations etc - to ignore all aspects of the game just because 3v3 is the balance target would probably be erroneous.

    would take a lot of restructuring, this is a hypothetical conversation not a proposed 'do this and pvp is fixed' thing.

    the problem i feel since wrath is that every class wants to have their cake and eat it too, so now we have a bunch of fat lazy players waddling around playing a lazy game because of the homogenization that brought.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-25 at 01:45 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by sololux View Post
    Most so called "pures" are hybrids themselves, Almost every class has multiple self heals these days. Everyone is a hybrid nowadays so this poll is kind of defunct.
    i dont heal in 3s often.. but when i do; it's on my warrior :/.

    pretty deep, man.

  2. #22
    I disagree. I think that the problem with PVP is not somewhat equal utility across all classes and specialisations. Not hybrids.

    Hybrids being able to use abilities of other roles is a nice touch to the game for me, and not a game-breaking feature. Being able to cast a small heal as a retribution paladin or change to bear-form as a restoration druid to withstand some damage is interesting. And it's hardly unfair, as long as there is a proper tax on performing abilities that belong to other specialisations than your current, i.e.: weak heal, weak protection; while at the same time naturally preventing you from doing your specialised task (dealing damage and healing respectively). I think that the develpers should take the time to cut back on the bloated mass of interrupts and crowd-controls, that is the result of the arms-race they so stupidly commited themselves to, and come up with some interesting and exciting utility spells for all.

    Secondly, finally, separate Arena (and perhaps even rated battlegrounds to some extent) from world-pvp, duels, and PVE in terms of gameplay. Both concepts suffer, just because such a simple solution seems, for some weird reason, unacceptable to the developers.
    Last edited by Drithien; 2013-06-25 at 01:56 AM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspellz View Post
    spriest has been far more dominate then locks for some time, you could argue the nerfs may/will be to much, but that is about class balance not hybrid general design. Furthermore hybrids are nothing more then a class that can spec into different rolls, that is it. A spriest and lock should both be balanced around being a dps caster, and outside of the fact that one has various casted heals they are.
    I agree, hybrid vs pure dps is bullshit nowadays, there's hardly any difference. Traditionally:
    - pure dps melee had mortal strike or stupid dk dmg while hybrids had utility like ret dispel, tremor/windshear/purge/bl, cyclone+roots
    - pure casters had spammable cc while hybrids had offheals and utility like spriest dispel, shaman tremor/windshear/purge/bl

    This distinction is pretty much gone nowadays. As far as pvp goes there might as well just be 3 different classes - melee/caster/healer. The best ones are the ones with the most dmg and utility at the current moment, completely dependent on whatever dope blizzard smokes at the moment.

    About the comparison of the 6 specs, I really don't see how that has anything to do with hybrids vs pure. Destros are bad because of dumb game design with 140 interrupts in the game, warrs are weak because they got stripped of all their utility in cata/5.2, rogues would be completely fine with just minor tweaks while I don't think dks are bad at all. Besides warr/dk/rogue dmg inside kill windows isn't even worse than hybrid dmg? Avatar/reck, shadowdance/blades, uh frenzy garg - that dmg is pretty sick?

  4. #24
    call me dumb but after playing wow off and on since BC,i always thought a hybrid was a class that could either dps-tank- or heal "warriors-pallys-druids-ect".a pure class was one that can only dps-aka mages-locks=rogues-ect.

    not sure how hybrids can be the problem when warriors are supposed to be a hybrid and they suck in pvp atm.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-24 at 10:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dald View Post
    Hybrids, in PvP, currently have more burst than most pure DPS classes while having heals and other utility. It's bullshit and needs to be addressed.
    yeah locks and mages suck in pvp and have bad damage/burst right?

  5. #25
    IMO the 'hybrid problem' is always how people view 'hybrid' with respect to 'pure'.

  6. #26
    Since the gutting of tanks in PvP, any class that doesn't have a healing spec is pretty much a pure.

    With respect to the thread topic, I agree with lulbalance, every single class has been given far too much. And yet some classes have been given more than others. Hybrids by default had a lot. Giving them ridiculous burst and cc to boot simply put them over the top.

    RIGHT NOW the only pures competing with elemental, feral and ret are the ones that are broken overpowered. I don't know why balance or enhance aren't on that list but I don't think it has much to do with the specs being bad as much as feral and elemental synergizing better with current comps
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Lulbalance View Post
    or do you think that this is a flawed analysis of the state of things right now?
    I wouldn't say your analysis is false, since you correctly stated the dmg and utility capabilities of those two classes. The only 'issue' I see regarding your request to re-balance certain classes is, that there really is no reason to.

    Think about it. 'Hybrid' and 'pure' - those are just words. Words used to categorize classes within the game in order to differentiate between those with extensive healing capabilities (that's what it comes down to), and those without.

    Now you (and many others) go ahead and claim that these names also determine certain strengths and weaknesses, and you demand that all specs within a category should have similar attributes and a similar concept of playstyle. This ist just not the case. Think of every spec as its own class.

    The only thing hybrid originally means is that you are able assume on of the other two roles the game has to offer. Everything else is how you choose to interpret and add meaning to those words.

  8. #28
    Pandaren Monk Tydrane's Avatar
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    Oct 2009
    I think a distinction needs to be drawn, in the context of this discussion, between the levels we're talking about in terms of hybrids, here.

    The first level, I'll refer to as 'class level'. At class level, hybrids do arguably have far greater utility because they can fit more than one role. For example, at a class level, a shaman can choose to heal, provide melee DPS or ranged (caster) DPS.

    The second level is specialisation (spec) level. At spec level, there are a ton of tools unique to each spec, some shared with other specs in their class, that arguably add to the flavour of the class (ie. Fear, Power Word: Shield).

    Personally, I like what Blizzard are doing, differentiating hybrid specs more starkly than in the past. For example, as an Enhancement Shaman, the number of tools you share with an Elemental Shaman or between either and Restoration, is limited. The ones you have often function the same way, but can be purposed differently. Adding on each spec's synergy with available glyphs that suit it best, selecting a DPS spec in a hybrid class is more like selecting a pure DPS spec out of all possible DPS specs. This is especially the case now that many pure DPS classes have a greater capacity to heal and provide utility than they used to.
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  9. #29
    Field Marshal dasmiez's Avatar
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    Jun 2013
    Innsbruck, Austria
    The only 'pure' classes are rogues, hunters, warlocks and mages. 4 out of 11 classes.

    So you're telling me that you want to gimp the damage of 64% of all classes so that the other 36% can faceroll to the top of the DPS meters?

  10. #30
    From a Retribution point of view ....

    - Paladins are mostly holy warriors and very strong in World of Warcraft, they ARE a class of heroes (Tirion, Uther, Arthas ....), and great fighters ... all are Retribution.
    -> Retribution, from WoW lore, are strong heroes, and holy fighters, not those behind, bringing utility, but those in front, breaking shields.

    - Retribution Paladins had a VERY hard time to go in RBG these past two seasons. Not many non-pallys seemed to complain very much, or even care, but it gives me the feeling that now that your little brother grew up, comes on the front scene, and puts you a bloody nose, that's not normal.

    - I'm curious about what kind of utility you're thinking about (please, not healing, we've got a spec for that) for Retribution paladins that would make them unique, and desired in RBG ?

    Yes, the question is about massive PVP too (RBG, savage ...), and not only about +2200 rated arenas. The thing is paladins are widespread, we are many, and I imagine that some time ago, it was either common to smash most of them ... now it's harder, and, as we're many, some people are undergoing the counterblow more often.

    Do like we did for so long, do your best, and adapt.

    I'm the first to make the effort to admit when something's overpowered, I don't have the feeling I've got a " Win " button with some maccro. I still loose duels, I die in Bg/Rbgs, in arenas .... I'm a medium player, not playing at " high rank ", but as any other class, we represent the majority and deserve to have room to play retribution and be able to beat others, no matter their spec or damage.

  11. #31
    Brewmaster Ettan's Avatar
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    Oct 2011
    Id say just give more utility to "pure dps" problem solved.

  12. #32
    I am Murloc! Balduvian's Avatar
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    Nov 2007
    The Netherlands
    Feral utility > Feral damage.

    Feral = hybrid.

    Also, why is it wrong if hybrids have better damage than utility?

  13. #33
    hybrids provide way too much utility / healing / damage / cc.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Balduvian View Post
    Feral utility > Feral damage.

    Feral = hybrid.

    Also, why is it wrong if hybrids have better damage than utility?
    what?? ferals damage is WAY high. OP levels.

    and at the OP.

    your example is half the problem

    ele shaman dmg is OP
    lock spread dmg is OP
    lock single target isnt great but its something. MG go go.
    All shadow has is devouring plague burst. yet as you mention you have a spammable fear making you a far better partner.

    the problem is more that ele shaman damage is madness atm. RNG procs and something dies without you even setting it up.

  15. #35
    I just hate that hybrids can do as much damage as non hybrids and still have great healing. One or the other is fine, but not both.

  16. #36
    Scarab Lord Cairhiin's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    I think it's fine if you want to reduce hybrid damage in PvP, but then all selfheals from pures need to be taken away. You can't have both.

  17. #37
    Pandaren Monk Lulbalance's Avatar
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    Jun 2011
    Barely Duelist
    lots of good points, even if you don't agree with anything i said the point was just to give the hybrid subject it's own thread really. i think it's an interesting topic atm ^^.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cairhiin View Post
    I think it's fine if you want to reduce hybrid damage in PvP, but then all selfheals from pures need to be taken away. You can't have both.

    that's a fair statement.

    i'm sorta surprised how [sorta] split the response is, i expected no one to agree with my radical suggestions.

    i'm not even sure i totally agree with myself tbh, what i do know is the game feels wrong to me, doesn't really make sense.

    i wanna be clear on one thing though because there are lot of stupid replies about warrs and dks being hybrids; i dont consider tanking to make a class a hybrid in arena, this isnt fkn raiding. stop trying to make that retarded strawman, you know what i mean.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-25 at 01:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Balduvian View Post
    Feral utility > Feral damage.

    Feral = hybrid.

    Also, why is it wrong if hybrids have better damage than utility?

    a decurse, a 6 min cd heal boost [even though op]., a 6 sec clone every 20s.. and a root... does not make you a controller of games.

    and your class' dmg is literally obscene. literally.
    Last edited by Lulbalance; 2013-06-25 at 02:03 PM.

  18. #38
    The solution from a PvP perspective would be simple. Nerf damage on hybrids, nerf utility on pures. Unfortunately due to there being no need for utility in PvE a lower damage class would just get excluded.

    I also think that the OP might need to reroll. It's been almost 2 xpacs since affliction got gutted. It's time to move on.

  19. #39
    Everytime I sit in some rediculous CC chain or watch a boomkin heart heal his team like a boss I think about this type of discussion. I honestly like PvP back in the day when healers healed and dps did not. Hybrids (the strict version back then, players that had specs that healed too. not tanking, a form of damage) did less damage but it was because they had healing/peeling/keep my real dps on target type of utility. So you ran into teams that were either a couple of straight damage teams, or a team that had one straight damage and one hybrid. So RMP was neat because they had to work together, TSG was cool because the ret supported the warrior.

    Sometimes I wonder if the game would be better if they got rid of all the self healing, gave each class one baseline CC but made them have short CDs (like 10secs), and each class got one damage reduction tool. That way you have some homegenization, but it is more fair. Make the healers heal, and everyone else protect and depend on their healers.

    I can see people saying "that would ruin PvE" but I don't think so. How often are you healing in a raid? How often are you CCing? All of these CCs and self heals are in the game for two purposes, soloing in the world and PvP. The last time the world was actually dangerous was probably Vanilla. Just get rid of all the bloat and put the game back to where it should be, team play instead of one man armies walking around.

  20. #40
    ITT people not realising that the definition of a Hybrid has changed.

    Previously Hybrid meant a class that could to multiple things at once, and generally had a lot of utility, while 'Pures' could only DPS.

    That has now changed. Hybrid now means 'A class that can respec and fulfill a different role'. This means the only pures left are Rogues, Mages, Hunters and Warlocks.

    From what it looks like, the OP has not taken into consideration that every class now has utility, and the amount of utility a class gives to a group is roughly equivalent. For PvP it's a bit different, since you mostly only care about the utility you give to yourself as opposed to other players. Such utility takes the form of CC, heals, and buffs.

    So basically, the tradeoff for getting rid of 'Hybrid' damage is to remove 'pure' utility. I doubt many 'pure' class players would like to give away all their CC though.

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