The Hybrid Problem

[Lulbalance]

i was thinking about this earlier.. issue seems to come up alot lately with people either defending hybrids or upset with how well some hybrid specs are doing.

i thought it might be interesting for it have its own topic.

here's the issue i have mainly with it, feel free to disagree.

just and example; i have to 2 toons which are almost identically geared - maxed - and with pve trinks on both. 1 a hybrid [spriest] and 1 a pure [warlock]

i have 2 friends on that server who i only play with; 1 a shaman and 1 druid.

needless to say we play ele/x/druid where x is whatever i feel like playing or whatever we feel counters what we seem to be q'n into. i won't get into rating specifics only to say it's over 2200 in mmr and current. so basically in the mid pack of the min / maxing area for 3s.

here's what irritates me:

my overall damage on lock is generally higher than when i play my spriest, also generally speaking we win more games when i play lock than when i play spriest. part of this i think might be because i'm more comfortable on lock but i think the other part is a more serious problem with the way the game is working atm.

that problem is my lock's utility is actually higher than my spriests utility [post patch obv] largely because of 1 spammable spell [ok if you wanna get technically it's 3.. gate / fear / and short CS - there are a ton of other things to use obv.. this is the bread and butter]. the game play in this current patch is reliant on such retarded burst from my partner the ele sham inside of a small window that basically all i have to do is spread pressure, watch DRs.. put CoE / 3 dots and a haunt on something when he's heats up and land a fear. game over something goes from 75% - 0%.. i'm there for 25%.

so my total damage because of 3 dot spread on everything that moves is higher than my spriest. but when i play the spriest - my spriest's contribution to damage on any given kill target during kill window is much higher.

counter argument could be 'thats the way aff is' and that isnt wrong.. but if i was playing destro or a warrior / rogue / UH dk and i was playing with a feral / ret / or enh shammy instead of an ele, i think it's like they would be doing close to or more damage inside that window that any of those pure dps toons i listed. the only exception might would be hunters.

to shorten that:

- my spriest and the ele both are there for damage > utility on kill targets.
- my lock is there for utility > damage during kills.

to me this ^ should be reversed. hybrid imo should always be ultil. over dmg. i feel this is hurting the mixing / matching part of creating comps for 3v3.

Generally atm pure dps classes are having to ride a high dmg hybrid - again the exception is hunters because of high dmg AND util. and that's why hunters are king right now. if the dps class has low utility [warriors / dks], they are left behind completely, i dont think this should be the case. a quick look at the popular comps this season re-enforces both of the a-fore mentioned points.

obviously there a lot of factors that i didnt talk about here - but the basic question is;

would you agree that utility should be the main function of a hybrid dps ahead of raw dmg in pvp? or do you think that this is a flawed analysis of the state of things right now?

[schwank05]

I feel that the Pure DPS specs should always without question be the top DPS. A Hybrid in a perfect setting should never beat a Pure, otherwise what incentives are there to play a pure DPS? If they aren't top than there is really no reason for them to even exist.

[Attractive]

I feel that the Pure DPS specs should always without question be the top DPS. A Hybrid in a perfect setting should never beat a Pure, otherwise what incentives are there to play a pure DPS? If they aren't top than there is really no reason for them to even exist.

Uh, maybe because people like the gameplay of a certain class? I like playing lock because of class mechanics and feeling, not because I always do more dps than someone who can offspec heal.

[Lulbalance]

Uh, maybe because people like the gameplay of a certain class? I like playing lock because of class mechanics and feeling, not because I always do more dps than someone who can offspec heal.

fair.. but as i pointed out; it's not a spec specific problem. IE ; you play aff because you like that style, you play destro because you prefer single targ nuking.. ele shammy out damages destro significantly in single target dps [in game situations]. how do you explain that?

[Kojo]

Oh boy another nerf hybrids back to vanilla topic.

[Deleted]

These ideas might be relevant for pvp, but i would not accept it in PvE. If you were doing lower dps in pve just because you can offspec heal - everyone would play pure, and those who wanna heal just play healing classes. It would be class-stacking like mad. I know myself i'd play a pure in that case.

As for your example, in my opinion i still think spriest bring more utility than a warlock, its just a matter of how you value certain spells for certain setups and counter setups. The reason your priest would be doing more damage than the lock is because of insanity. Its quite odd how a spec can be so rubbish in ST damage in pve, and yet quite potent i pvp. But it is how you say, that affli plays by spreading constant pressure and not really singletarget bursty in comparison to current priest state. Interesting view though.

What if the diffrence for hybrids would be CC? I've always felt rogue mage lock brings more CC than hybrids, and hybrids bringing other things, mainly offheals etc. In that sense both parts could be doing equal damage, just utility being done diffrently.

[Dald]

Hybrids, in PvP, currently have more burst than most pure DPS classes while having heals and other utility. It's bullshit and needs to be addressed.

[Illiterate]

your poll is missing an option: nerf huntards
hybrids are strong but not op. enh burst is retarded

[Valedus]

Hybrids, in PvP, currently have more burst than most pure DPS classes while having heals and other utility. It's bullshit and needs to be addressed.

And a lot of them have less CC and consistent damage, so.... not really. Different specs have different advantages and disadvantages. Hybrids have self healing as a defensive mechanic, while a warrior or DK can go blood/Defensive. A mage has ice block, roots upon roots, blink, etc. Different classes work in different ways.

[Gandrake]

Yes, I think that it is a huge problem with the game, but as a Warrior I might be extremely biased.

Oh boy another nerf hybrids back to vanilla topic.

You don't think there is a problem with hybrids performing the only role another class can perform just as good as (or better) while having even more to offer?

[Dald]

And a lot of them have less CC and consistent damage, so.... not really. Different specs have different advantages and disadvantages. Hybrids have self healing as a defensive mechanic, while a warrior or DK can go blood/Defensive. A mage has ice block, roots upon roots, blink, etc. Different classes work in different ways.

I'll take it that you're either a hybrid or new to this whole pvp thing.

[Durandro]

I feel that the Pure DPS specs should always without question be the top DPS. A Hybrid in a perfect setting should never beat a Pure, otherwise what incentives are there to play a pure DPS? If they aren't top than there is really no reason for them to even exist.

No, all DPS should be more or less equal. What should be different is their utility. Hybrids bring healing, Pures should have more CC and defensive cooldowns.

If the gap becomes too big, certain classes get kicked out of raid teams. We know this happens.

Yet another reason why PvP and PvE need seperate mechanics.

[Hand Banana]

I completely agree, for warlocks. My lock is generally fearing or cc'ing people while my teams spriest is insanity'ing a kill target when we land kills. Same for when I play ele/lock, my lock is fearing while my teams ele is globalling.

However, the other pures, like mages/dks/wars/hunters, they generally are in on the killing just as much as a hybrid. Locks are just kind of built that way.

[Kojo]

So you want to take dmg away from hybrids and utility away from pures? Like what, put a cd on warlock fear and increase their dmg?

Take away from pures? No they want to take away from hybrids and pures can keep all the self heals and utility they have, even the stuff that used to be hybrid utility like brez and lust. And warriors and dk's are NOT pures, just because tanking is shit in pvp does not make that so.

[Ryve]

I feel that the Pure DPS specs should always without question be the top DPS. A Hybrid in a perfect setting should never beat a Pure, otherwise what incentives are there to play a pure DPS? If they aren't top than there is really no reason for them to even exist.

What a steaming load of shit. If you need "incentives" to play a class, as opposed to "because you enjoy the class/RP of it", you need to find a new hobby.

The vast majority of players want to DPS by default. In my time raiding, on the few occasions where it was necessary to replace a tank, one of the hybrid DPS warrior/paladin/DK would always replace the tank and we'd get a new DPS in. A small percentage genuinely like healing/tanking, for the rest it's something that will either never be touched, or is used on request for their guild/raid group.

[Stormspellz]

spriest has been far more dominate then locks for some time, you could argue the nerfs may/will be to much, but that is about class balance not hybrid general design. Furthermore hybrids are nothing more then a class that can spec into different rolls, that is it. A spriest and lock should both be balanced around being a dps caster, and outside of the fact that one has various casted heals they are.

[Lulbalance]

spriest has been far more dominate then locks for some time, you could argue the nerfs may/will be to much, but that is about class balance not hybrid general design. Furthermore hybrids are nothing more then a class that can spec into different rolls, that is it. A spriest and lock should both be balanced around being a dps caster, and outside of the fact that one has various casted heals they are.

i knew someone would base a response entirely around that example..even though i specifically gave outs and broadened the scope of the comparison to 6 classes.

aside from pointing out that mistake i don't really have anything to say to this response because it doesnt really offer anything valuable :/.

you missed the point.

[sololux]

Most so called "pures" are hybrids themselves, Almost every class has multiple self heals these days. Everyone is a hybrid nowadays so this poll is kind of defunct.

[Lulbalance]

So you want to take dmg away from hybrids and utility away from pures? Like what, put a cd on warlock fear and increase their dmg?

pretty absolute there.

i wouldnt be against something like a small cd on things like fear and a damage boost in another area - coupled with a reduction to hybrid dps and better cc alternatives; the problem is pretty big and dumbing it down to that type of stuff would just make people freak out. also ofc you'd have issues in peeling for yourself in 1v1 situations etc - to ignore all aspects of the game just because 3v3 is the balance target would probably be erroneous.

would take a lot of restructuring, this is a hypothetical conversation not a proposed 'do this and pvp is fixed' thing.

the problem i feel since wrath is that every class wants to have their cake and eat it too, so now we have a bunch of fat lazy players waddling around playing a lazy game because of the homogenization that brought.

---------- Post added 2013-06-25 at 01:45 AM ----------

Most so called "pures" are hybrids themselves, Almost every class has multiple self heals these days. Everyone is a hybrid nowadays so this poll is kind of defunct.

i dont heal in 3s often.. but when i do; it's on my warrior :/.

pretty deep, man.

[Drithien]

I disagree. I think that the problem with PVP is not somewhat equal utility across all classes and specialisations. Not hybrids.

Hybrids being able to use abilities of other roles is a nice touch to the game for me, and not a game-breaking feature. Being able to cast a small heal as a retribution paladin or change to bear-form as a restoration druid to withstand some damage is interesting. And it's hardly unfair, as long as there is a proper tax on performing abilities that belong to other specialisations than your current, i.e.: weak heal, weak protection; while at the same time naturally preventing you from doing your specialised task (dealing damage and healing respectively). I think that the develpers should take the time to cut back on the bloated mass of interrupts and crowd-controls, that is the result of the arms-race they so stupidly commited themselves to, and come up with some interesting and exciting utility spells for all.

Secondly, finally, separate Arena (and perhaps even rated battlegrounds to some extent) from world-pvp, duels, and PVE in terms of gameplay. Both concepts suffer, just because such a simple solution seems, for some weird reason, unacceptable to the developers.