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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by momirmaster View Post
    10 man is tuned around 2 pieces of loot half of which gets de'ed. there are 2 13/13hm guilds on my server us and dread We killed lei shen and ra-den first. although within hour's of them dread has a 545.20 ilvl we have a 540.20 ilvl . that might not seem like alot but think before upgrades during progression. they had a 538ish when they killed lei shen we had like a like 532 ilvl. if they would have went 10 man they would have killed it too. If we had there ilvl we would have killed it a week earlier we had a 3% wipe pre item upgrades. we killed it the Wednesday after upgrades. The point is 10 vs 25 in terms of pure numbers your right 10 is easier. But in terms of during progression 25's have 5+ilvl gear higher on average than a 10 man so a 25 going to 10 man isn't a good judge of the content. Cause 25 man gear invalidates one of the challenges of raiding 10 man. We had people still waiting for 4 set's when we killed ra-den lol. tell me 1 25 man that doesn't have full offspec 4 set's.
    I am not making any arguments. As I stated, I don't really care about the whole 25 vs 10 thing. I just read the thread and after a few posts I felt the need to remind a lot of people that they should actually read the OP and base their answers on the information he provides instead of just making things up in order to support their opinion. That's just dumb and annoying.

    He never said, that they transformed their 25m group to one 10m group and he also never mentioned how many members of their old 25m group actually participate in their new 10m groups.
    I just refer to the people that make wild claims like "lol you just removed the bads from your group, f**k off". Comparison of itemlevel and -distribution between 10 and 25 is completely valid and can be made without further information by the OP.
    Last edited by Wyand1337; 2013-06-25 at 10:25 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    Exactly! The same argument was being made during Wrath of the Lich King, where guilds would farm bosses on 25 man for the superior loot and then faceroll through 10 man and declare it as 'easy'. Of course its easy when you're using gear half a tier higher then what even the end boss drops.
    The argument during WotLK is valid since gear was actually higher. Gear is the same now. Running 25man for one week doesn't magically give you higher item levels.
    "It is only the great men who are truly obscene, for if they never dared to be obscene, they never could have dared to be great."

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Heca View Post
    The argument during WotLK is valid since gear was actually higher. Gear is the same now. Running 25man for one week doesn't magically give you higher item levels.
    Yes it does....

  4. #44
    Immortal clevin's Avatar
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    Jan 2012
    The Other Side of Azeroth
    Quote Originally Posted by Heca View Post
    The argument during WotLK is valid since gear was actually higher. Gear is the same now. Running 25man for one week doesn't magically give you higher item levels.
    But over time more of the loot in 25s will be used vs DEed, so you have people in the raid getting benefit from drops vs not.

  5. #45
    The Lightbringer Rizendragon's Avatar
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    May 2010
    Born: Syracuse, NY; Currently live: Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by trystero View Post
    Yeah, it does. I understand what you're saying, that the raid itself, in a vacuum, is not harder. If you were to populate a raid with robots of equal skill, then 25s would not take longer to clear than 10s (we're both assuming that's true). But we're operating in the "real world" (yeah WoW is part of the real world) where recruitment, attrition, and scarcity all come into play. And this DOES make raiding 25s harder. The problem is here we're using two definitions for the word hard/challenging: in-game mechanics, and possibility of completion. The latter, for sure, is harder in 25s; otherwise, far more guilds would be clearing 25 for the better rewards. As it is, we're literally the only 25 guild on our server, Horde and Alliance.
    You're confusing logistics with difficulty. Logistics are an obstacle, but don't confuse that with difficulty. Difficulty is the actual encounters themselves. You do have less personal accountability in 25 mainly because you're 1/25th of the raid and not 1/10th of it. It means that your personal DPS/HPS/tanking is that much less of the whole, though still important. In 10 if you have all your DPS but one pulling the maximum you could wipe because of that one person. In 25 you have a bit of a cushion where your top DPS will counter balance your lowest DPS (obviously this depends on how low the lowest DPS is).

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by slime View Post
    I find it is the 10 man raiders that like to hi-jack threads like this and turn them into 10 versus 25 man difficulty threads... I wonder why that is? My guess, insecurity.
    If it was a thread saying 10 man is harder im sure you'd get 25 player raiders doing the same thing. The difference is there are less 25 player raiders so it might not be as noticeable.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Heca View Post
    The argument during WotLK is valid since gear was actually higher. Gear is the same now. Running 25man for one week doesn't magically give you higher item levels.

    Infact it really does, just look at heroic first kills in top 30, they are only a few days appart and first or second week after release the 25m have a significant ilvl advantage up to 2-3 ilvl average after 1-2 weeks in the current content, now add heroic loot to the table for 1-2 weeks you get a significant increase of average ilvl.

    But who cares if you one is easier than the other. I would say 90% of the 25 raiders raid 25m cause they just like to raid 25m, not because its harder or because you get better loot. They just like it. Same goes for 10m still I think tjere are some 10m playing 10m cause they dont have a 25m on their server that suits them or cause his friends want to play 10m.

    So if you choose to do 2 10m and believe its easier doenst that mean you thing of yourself as bad players and not good enough for 25m? Cant really figure out why someone would change from 25m to 10m if they have enough people cause they are stuck on a boss. Either you had bad people joining you or didnt find good new ones and thats why you didnt progress farther.

    Balancing is fine, you cant compare 25m to 10m, there is no real way of telling. But even blizzard said 10m is a bit easier on dps scaling(a bit meaning you can kill the boss without the perfect setup). With the new TF loot, and the difference in Tankvengeance and having alot of different classes. Crit banner from a warrior does alot of extra dmg on 25m and you will most likely have atleast 1 if not more. And some 10m dont even ahve a warrior. Thats why 10m requirements in 10m are a bit lower. And having 2-3 ilvl per player more from 25m helps alot. Still this doenst make 19m easy and 25m hard since most bosses are not high dps bosses except 2-3.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Xploits View Post
    You had 2 months worth of 25 man loot, inflating your item level by a massive amount. You then picked the 10 most geared and capable players from your 25 man... and you're trying to argue that 10 man is a joke?

    I can do Mogushan Vaults in my Heroic T15 gear, and argue that T14 was too easy too.
    If you read my post correctly, we formed 2 10 man teams which both surpassed our 25 man progress by 2 bosses my team and the other team by 3 heroic in one reset.
    We both ended up using the nuke tactic for animus heroic which is something that is not possible on 25 man heroic apparently.

  9. #49
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Saku, Estonia
    Closing thread. As this is a good base for a heated 10 vs 25 man raid group argument, which is not that tolerated in R&D.
    Mari of Punished (EU, social raiding group/guild)
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