Back to 10 man raiding

**Nimitzles** · 2013-06-25, 09:21 AM

I finally understand why 25 man raiding guilds have been dying out.

2 months ago we merged with another guild on my realm that was 4hc and we were 3hc at the time. The merge worked out well in terms of the community and players and new guild management getting along but it really seemed to hamper progress.

Fights like ji-kun which we face rolled in 10man took a bit of time getting right in 25 man, even horridon felt easier to us on 10man. 2 weeks ago we managed to get 7hc out the way but we were battling on council a bit, also farm bosses would give us trouble during the week.

So 2 weeks ago we decided to give 10man raiding a go and split into 2 teams, 1 team managed 10hc the 1st week and my team 9hc. I have to say this tier with gear 10man raiding is far easier then 25s. So as a guild we have decided to stay 2 10man teams going forward and have the benefit of enough people for the new flexi raid system.

With the way the current rewards work now, it's no suprise 25s have been on the decline since cataclysm. All I know is that I respect 25 man progress a lot more then 10man even though I prefer 10man raiding.

**DreamCast** · 2013-06-25, 09:29 AM

Dark animus 25 heroic killed off the best 25 man guild on my server. Esp when they went and killed it in under 5 attempts on 10man the next reset.lol
So you guys have made the right move imo especially if you want to clear the content before 5.4

**Shmeh** · 2013-06-25, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by Nimitzles

I finally understand why 25 man raiding guilds have been dying out.

2 months ago we merged with another guild on my realm that was 4hc and we were 3hc at the time. The merge worked out well in terms of the community and players and new guild management getting along but it really seemed to hamper progress.

Fights like ji-kun which we face rolled in 10man took a bit of time getting right in 25 man, even horridon felt easier to us on 10man. 2 weeks ago we managed to get 7hc out the way but we were battling on council a bit, also farm bosses would give us trouble during the week.

So 2 weeks ago we decided to give 10man raiding a go and split into 2 teams, 1 team managed 10hc the 1st week and my team 9hc. I have to say this tier with gear 10man raiding is far easier then 25s. So as a guild we have decided to stay 2 10man teams going forward and have the benefit of enough people for the new flexi raid system.

With the way the current rewards work now, it's no suprise 25s have been on the decline since cataclysm. All I know is that I respect 25 man progress a lot more then 10man even though I prefer 10man raiding.

You're being held back by a several bad players in your 25 if you're struggling. Players that likely aren't brought to your 10s. When my 10/13h 10 man fell apart 4 of us joined a 4/13h 25 man on our server in order to stay together. Replacing several of their less than adequate players with us pushed them to 9/13h that week, 10 last week and 11 this week. The core of their group is exceptional, as are the four that we added to it, however there are still several players present that I would not let anywhere near a 10 man raid if I was leading it, but they're okay to have in a 25.

I find 25 much easier in terms of personal responsibility. You can get away with having a couple people that just aren't good at all. I do find 25 man much more frustrating though.

Originally Posted by DreamCast

Dark animus 25 heroic killed off the best 25 man guild on my server. Esp when they went and killed it in under 5 attempts on 10man the next reset.lol
So you guys have made the right move imo especially if you want to clear the content before 5.4

Heroic Dark Animus is significantly easier on 25, especially if you don't have a third tank available in your 10 man (before the burn strat.) I've put in a fair amount of attempts on both, and killed it on 25. They're not even comparable.

**DreamCast** · 2013-06-25, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by Shmeh

You're being held back by a several bad players in your 25 if you're struggling. Players that likely aren't brought to your 10s. When my 10/13h 10 man fell apart 4 of us joined a 4/13h 25 man on our server in order to stay together. Replacing several of their less than adequate players with us pushed them to 9/13h that week, 10 last week and 11 this week. The core of their group is exceptional, as are the four that we added to it, however there are still several players present that I would not let anywhere near a 10 man raid if I was leading it, but they're okay to have in a 25.

I find 25 much easier in terms of personal responsibility. You can get away with having a couple people that just aren't good at all. I do find 25 man much more frustrating though.

That is true, a lot easier to get 10 good players together then 25, so when you get to fights like dark animus heroic that require all 25 players to be decent and aware it can be a guild breaker.

Deleted · 2013-06-25, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by Shmeh

You're being held back by a several bad players in your 25 if you're struggling. Players that likely aren't brought to your 10s. When my 10/13h 10 man fell apart 4 of us joined a 4/13h 25 man on our server in order to stay together. Replacing several of their less than adequate players with us pushed them to 9/13h that week, 10 last week and 11 this week. The core of their group is exceptional, as are the four that we added to it, however there are still several players present that I would not let anywhere near a 10 man raid if I was leading it, but they're okay to have in a 25.

This. So much this.
I cannot stand the logic of people saying 25m is harder just because their raid is half-filled with less-than-capable raiders. It is NOT a valid argument.
Downsizing to 10m and getting rid of the average joe will inevitably make the raid feel easier...but the difficulty is the same. You just improved the quality of your raiding crew.
The example of the 10m crew joining a 25m team and allowing them to replace their bad players is a perfect example of that too.
Both raid formats are different. Just because some 25m guilds cannot fill their raids with appropriate players does not mean that 25m is inherently harder.

Watching some 25m guilds carry bad players through ToT then hitting a wall on Lei Shen HC is quite funny though.

Deleted · 2013-06-25, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by Yhal

Watching some 25m guilds carry bad players through ToT then hitting a wall on Lei Shen HC is quite funny though.

What is even more funny is watching 10 man guilds carry bad players and not getting stuck at all.

I raid 10 man, I am fine with that, but I am not delusional enough to think that 25 is more leniant or something. I know that I have chosen the path of lesser resistance and I am fine with that. I do not see the point in trying to fool myself that I am raiding the harder size when it is fairly obvious I am not.

@OP, I feel you. My last 25 man guild in Cata went through the exact same thing. It is sad but that is the way it is. Like you, even though I raid 10, I have a lot more respect for 25 man progress, to be completely fair, I am not even that impressed by 10 man progress at all. Some time in the future I believe I wish to return to 25 man raiding.

**Geckoo** · 2013-06-25, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Yhal

Just because some 25m guilds cannot fill their raids with appropriate players does not mean that 25m is inherently harder.

The main difference comes to the learning curve with some specific mechanics. 10 players are less than 25 players, so 10 players can learn faster some things than 25, even if both have 10 or 25 excellent players. Other than that, they are simply different modes of the same stuff.

But this gives a bit of insight in why 25m raiding has been dying since Cataclysm. You need a high-end with a very good progress raid to survive in 25m, there is no room to average progress 25m raiding, because sooner or later the path comes clear: 10 man is easier to manage, you don't have to carry those bad players and at the end you get the same reward. And that's a big issue for the whole 25m raiding community, there needs to be a player base willing to improve in order to have a decent variety of guilds and raiders in different steps of progression... but in 25m that's not happening since only with very good progress a 25m progress raid can survive.

Deleted · 2013-06-25, 10:29 AM

thing about 25 man raiding (made the switch back to 25 from 10 man mid-way through 5.2) is the endless delays :/
random dcs / lag / healers not turning up / hacked accounts really slow things down
admin issues is where the real difficulty lies, the actual boss fights are generally not more or less difficult

**Ichifails** · 2013-06-25, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Firefly33

What is even more funny is watching 10 man guilds carry bad players and not getting stuck at all.

I raid 10 man, I am fine with that, but I am not delusional enough to think that 25 is more leniant or something. I know that I have chosen the path of lesser resistance and I am fine with that. I do not see the point in trying to fool myself that I am raiding the harder size when it is fairly obvious I am not.

You see, this is where I have to call bullshit. You are a protection paladin aren't you? When your Class and/or Spec is what makes 10mans easy or hard, you aren't allowed to speak about difficulty.
10mans are really setup dependent and you can have close to 0 gear dropping. We had 5 HC Thunderforged items drop for us as a guild from at least 40 HC boss kills. That's stupid.

We tried Durumu for the first time last night, went with 2 tanks and our best wipe was at 15%. Raid was over but some people sticked around. Our retri paladin came back from boxing, we got the 10 people we could, went in and 1shotted him with the paladin solo tanking.
That's not easy, that fucking bullshit. Several classes/specs are what make or break 10mans and I don't like that. Tell me 10mans are hard when you don't have a Holy or Prot paladin, when you have to use a warrior tank, no boomkins, no ele shamans.

What the OP is seeing is:
They cut down on the people they were carrying.
They have inflated ilvls.
They have the choice of getting the classes they need.

Yeah... those make or break 10 mans. It's a stupid system but don't say that 25's are harder because they aren't. I've watched streams, did some myself and looked at advice for 25 players. There's no personal responsibility in 25 mans.

@OP: I see you like to bash 10mans for being too easy but really, do an entire tier on 10man, don't change change 70% through the tier with a broken system like Thunderforged items.
There's also this:

Originally Posted by Nimitzles

Not really, basically if paragon don't win it confirms 10 man is harder because they were world 1st in 25 man.

**vaccine** · 2013-06-25, 01:47 PM

Yer Prot Paladins are a big bowl of BS at the moment. So happy we have one because without it we'd literally be weeks back in progress. I do feel sorry for our second tank though, don't think there has been a tier he's sat on the bench so much because the solution to so many problems in 10 man this tier is to solo tank it wtih a pala.

As to the issue at hand it varies but in general when you drop to 10s you cut the slack from your group. Every 25 has better raiders, if you form a 10 from those you'll progress a lot faster simply because you remove the dead weight (or slower learners). I think this tier has edged on the side of 10s being a bit harder, especially if you lack a Prot Pally. But in general I'm happy with MoP raid balance between 10s and 25s, even if some stuff can still be cheesed on 25s (eg Huddle).

I really do hope they sort out the Pally solo tanking issue for next raid though. It affects 10s progression too much if you can not only drop a tank for a DPS, but have that tank do insane damage due to higher vengeance. It's like replacing 1 tank for 2 more DPS.

Deleted · 2013-06-25, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Ichifails

What the OP is seeing is:
They cut down on the people they were carrying.
They have inflated ilvls.
They have the choice of getting the classes they need.

This prettty much sums it all up

**NeverStop** · 2013-06-25, 02:05 PM

Just curious, how do you carry "bads" through 25 man H Lei Shen? By "bads" I mean people who "lagged out and therefore couldn't click the warlock portal in time when they got Helm of Command." Those same people (if they're ranged) will also wipe you time and time again in Phase 3 when they stand too close to the boss and spawn 20 Ball Lightnings.

**slime** · 2013-06-25, 02:06 PM

I find it is the 10 man raiders that like to hi-jack threads like this and turn them into 10 versus 25 man difficulty threads... I wonder why that is? My guess, insecurity.

**Xploit** · 2013-06-25, 02:08 PM

You had 2 months worth of 25 man loot, inflating your item level by a massive amount. You then picked the 10 most geared and capable players from your 25 man... and you're trying to argue that 10 man is a joke?

I can do Mogushan Vaults in my Heroic T15 gear, and argue that T14 was too easy too.

**Keashaa** · 2013-06-25, 02:13 PM

Really good arguments. I mean, just take that:

- 25 players = 5 exceptional players, 10 strong players, 10 good players => working out not so good
- now take the 5 exceptional players and 5 of the strong players and go 10 men => wow, it's super easy, 10 men is way easier than 25 men

Sorry, what was your argument again?

**Aceshigh** · 2013-06-25, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by Xploits

You had 2 months worth of 25 man loot, inflating your item level by a massive amount. You then picked the 10 most geared and capable players from your 25 man... and you're trying to argue that 10 man is a joke?

I can do Mogushan Vaults in my Heroic T15 gear, and argue that T14 was too easy too.

Can't stress this enough. The only thing Xploits didn't touch on though I'm sure he's very aware of it is the ability to cherry pick classes from the 25m roster as well. I watched a 25 man guild have a week off because of some vacation stuff and they decided to run a 10m heroic that week. They took 3 demo locks an Ele Shaman and a survival hunter to Durumu then laughed at how "faceroll" it was compare to 25. I wonder why it would be a joke with that setup on the walls? Shocking.

**trystero** · 2013-06-25, 02:21 PM

To the 10m raiders who rail against 25s: you really have no business doing it until you've done it, and no it doesn't count that 1) you did it back in Ulduar when you killed three bosses or 2) you just made up the fact that you did it so you can claim some authority.

This tier my guild swapped to 25s, which is quite a challenge to do mid-tier, and I'd never go back now. All of the complaints I had about 25s were founded in ignorance and irrelevant. Don't knock it till you try it.

"10s are better because they have more personal responsibility" -of course you do, it's sheer math, but heroic encounters are still designed for basically everyone to be alive, and it's harder to keep 25 players alive than 10

"10s are better because you feel more special" -WGAF?

"10s are better because you can't comp stack" -Not sure why I thought this made 10s better. It's holding raid designs back, to be honest, because the game cannot design mechanics with the assumption that a guild will bring all or even most classes. Remember the screamfest about Horridon 10 because some comps couldn't cover all dispels?

Just because some 25m guilds cannot fill their raids with appropriate players does not mean that 25m is inherently harder.

Yeah, it does. I understand what you're saying, that the raid itself, in a vacuum, is not harder. If you were to populate a raid with robots of equal skill, then 25s would not take longer to clear than 10s (we're both assuming that's true). But we're operating in the "real world" (yeah WoW is part of the real world) where recruitment, attrition, and scarcity all come into play. And this DOES make raiding 25s harder. The problem is here we're using two definitions for the word hard/challenging: in-game mechanics, and possibility of completion. The latter, for sure, is harder in 25s; otherwise, far more guilds would be clearing 25 for the better rewards. As it is, we're literally the only 25 guild on our server, Horde and Alliance.

Deleted · 2013-06-25, 02:43 PM