Is Vengeance Getting Out Of Control?

[Deleted]

DPS are still doing more damage to the boss than the tank is. It's a team effort.

Open the report. That's Ra-Den's damage TAKEN, meaning the damage the boss took. Romulo is first on this list.

[Moshots]

if your a normal mode or lfr raider and the tank is doing more damage than you. You either A. suck at the game. or B. the tank is doing something to "game" dps like pulling trash into the boss in lfr, or C he outgears the fuck out of you.

If your a heroic mode raider and ill let Peter Griffen say it for me. "who the hell cares" if the boss dies. heroic raiders are about progression and Progression is progression not one of my raid group is complaining that our old monk tank pulled 320k dps on the first heroic council kill. or that I pulled 300k on ra-den. We care if the boss dies. It need's a cap so we can't game it to the level of DA where a tank can do 700k dps. but our fully heroic geared raiders are pulling 200k+ single target. so tank's basically out dps the dps on 1 fights now ra-den "cause we don't do DA zerg" and I could probably game council but I don't. even Iron qon our paly tank is 6th on the dps chart. The think people don't realize is tanks dps looks bad but in reality its only that dps don't have gear yet in the content. Tanks scale off damage dps need gear to catch up.

[Locruid]

Vengeance is stupid. The "threat issue" isn't an issue. They can increase the threat modifier if they wanted to.

I leveled with a friend when MOP came out. He was a Blood DK and I was a BOOMKIN. If I got more than 2 on me at 88 I was dead. I HAD to run or just soak it up and die. Him on the other hand could take 6-8 at once and come out smelling like Roses. We leveled together from 85 to 90 and his DPS was always higher than mine on top of that.

My Fury Warrior at 50 take about 4-8 hits to kill a mob in FULL heirloom (yes even rocking Dual 2H heirlooms). MY Arms takes about the same amount of time. My Prot Spec spec takes roughly 2. Charge, Shield Slam, Revenge and it's dead. Not to mention I can also take on more mobs without worrying.

Maybe I'm Old Scgoll but a Tank should be a Meat Shield. Like everyone tells Healers who want to do some DPS in heal spec (excluding Disc, MW) you have 2 specs, use them. Well the same should apply to Tanks. Get rid of Vengeance and "You have 2 specs use them"

Anyways my points are moot. I quit 6 weeks ago due to gameplay changes (after playing nonstop since Beta) and I'm having a BLAST tearing up Rift now

[arel00]

Can we stop linking Ra-den as an example? It's bias in its purest form.
Link another fight where mechanics aren't subjecting the tank to such unearthly hits, and we'll see how Vengeance fares. Using a fight where a tank stays on the boss all the time while being targeted by strikes that do his entire health pool in damage isn't proving ANY point, except perhaps that people know how to use the game elements at their best.

[Deleted]

if your a normal mode or lfr raider and the tank is doing more damage than you. You either A. suck at the game. or B. the tank is doing something to "game" dps like pulling trash into the boss in lfr, or C he outgears the fuck out of you.

If your a heroic mode raider and ill let Peter Griffen say it for me. "who the hell cares" if the boss dies. heroic raiders are about progression and Progression is progression not one of my raid group is complaining that our old monk tank pulled 320k dps on the first heroic council kill. or that I pulled 300k on ra-den. We care if the boss dies. It need's a cap so we can't game it to the level of DA where a tank can do 700k dps. but our fully heroic geared raiders are pulling 200k+ single target. so tank's basically out dps the dps on 1 fights now ra-den and I could probably game council but I don't. even Iron qon our paly tank is 6th on the dps chart. The think people don't realize is tanks dps looks bad but in reality its only that dps don't have gear yet in the content. Tanks scale off damage dps need gear to catch up.

Never has anyone said so little in so many words. Do you honestly think Dps in BIS gear are going to double their output?

---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 05:00 PM ----------

Can we stop linking Ra-den as an example? It's bias in its purest form.
Link another fight where mechanics aren't subjecting the tank to such unearthly hits, and we'll see how Vengeance fares. Using a fight where a tank stays on the boss all the time while being targeted by strikes that do his entire health pool in damage isn't proving ANY point, except perhaps that people know how to use the game elements at their best.

Yup, im pretty sure linking fights where AoE tanking takes part is the real way we should judge if tank damage is broken or not.

[Deleted]

Please post your WoL logs so all the DPS in top end guilds can learn from your obviously superior wisdom on the art of DPS'ing.

Clearly the OP is not one of those players. I'm sure they are clued up to know the advantages of having a tank with vengeance.

[arel00]

Yup, im pretty sure linking fights where AoE tanking takes part is the real way we should judge if tank damage is broken or not.

Because ToT is made only by Ra-den and pure aoe fights. Right. Try again.

[Deleted]

Clearly the OP is not one of those players. I'm sure they are clued up to know the advantages of having a tank with vengeance.

Who the hell cares what happens in 5 mans? You claim everyone who gets outdamaged by a tank to be (in your own words) underperforming, to some extent "bad".

---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 05:10 PM ----------

Because ToT is made only by Ra-den and pure aoe fights. Right. Try again.

There really is no point trying to discuss game balance at the endgame with someone who's probably not even completed LFR. If you really think there's no problem with vengeance because the envoirment you raid on doesnt allow for it, then please, state that. Refrain from voicing your opinion on a part of the game you do not partake in. Thank you.

[arel00]

There really is no point trying to discuss game balance at the endgame with someone who's probably not even completed LFR. If you really think there's no problem with vengeance because the envoirment you raid on doesnt allow for it, then please, state that. Refrain from voicing your opinion on a part of the game you do not partake in. Thank you.

Excuse me, when did I write Vengeance has no problems or is fine as it is? Please enlighten me.
I said that when evaluating how well a mechanic fares, Vengeance in this case, linking edge cases and using them as "proof" is biased. Ra-den is an edge case for Vengeance, and if you have any clue about the fight, you will know it. As I -was- saying, it only proves people know how to take advantages from a mechanic. It was the same with killing Hodir HM using the flowers buff, or having a rogue cap avoidance and tank Mother Sharaz. And that was years ago.

Personally I think it should be reworked but that is complex because it means changing the Active Mitigation model from its foundation. It's downright impossible to split the two problems apart, and most of the solutions presented in this board totally ignore the consequences of a flat-out Vengeance nerf, which only serves to prove that those who propose such an approach don't have a freaking clue on the math behind this game.
To quote your last statement, there really is no point to discuss game balance at the endgame with someone who doesn't understand how the game is coded and what math affects it. You want to bring up a serious discussion about Vengeance and tanking models? Please do, I'm all about it. As long as people start taking numbers for what they are, not for what they think they mean.

[Deleted]

Excuse me, when did I write Vengeance has no problems or is fine as it is? Please enlighten me.
I said that when evaluating how well a mechanic fares, Vengeance in this case, linking edge cases and using them as "proof" is biased. Ra-den is an edge case for Vengeance, and if you have any clue about the fight, you will know it. As I -was- saying, it only proves people know how to take advantages from a mechanic. It was the same with killing Hodir HM using the flowers buff, or having a rogue cap avoidance and tank Mother Sharaz. And that was years ago.

Personally I think it should be reworked but that is complex because it means changing the Active Mitigation model from its foundation. It's downright impossible to split the two problems apart, and most of the solutions presented in this board totally ignore the consequences of a flat-out Vengeance nerf, which only serves to prove that those who propose such an approach don't have a freaking clue on the math behind this game.
To quote your last statement, there really is no point to discuss game balance at the endgame with someone who doesn't understand how the game is coded and what math affects it. You want to bring up a serious discussion about Vengeance and tanking models? Please do, I'm all about it. As long as people start taking numbers for what they are, not for what they think they mean.

I might have misunderstood your previous post, and i apologize for that. We're pretty much arguing when our mindsets are very similar, but our views are different, which is pointless.

Forgive this peasant for his mistake.

[shise]

The problem with tanks (Blood dk mostly) on top of the DPS metter is that... what the hell shall we play a DPS if we can just go as tank and do two jobs at the same time? And for that matter, even 3 as some heal like mad.

DPS= DPS

Tank= tank

Healer=heal.

That's what we all started playing for and that shouldn't change.

[Poppincaps]

Without vengeance and tanks doing good damage the skill cap for tanks is the lowest out of the three roles for sure. Sure, active mitigation fixed that problem a bit, but doing more dps gives them a clear goal to shoot for. Now, whenever a tank beats me on dps because his vengeance is over 200k... well that annoys me, but other than that I think it's fine for tanks to do 70-80% of a dps's damage.

[Draknalor186]

i can pop 110k dps as blood dk when i burst on single target boss fights (LFD and full dps gear ofc) so no i dont think tank dmg needs to be nerfed, since who dosent love shield slam crits over 200k? and if u cant out dps the tank, then you should just improve or go tank yourself

[Eranthe]

i can pop 110k dps as blood dk when i burst on single target boss fights (LFD and full dps gear ofc) so no i dont think tank dmg needs to be nerfed, since who dosent love shield slam crits over 200k? and if u cant out dps the tank, then you should just improve or go tank yourself

what you and several other people in this thread do not seem to understand is that it is mathematically impossible to outdps tanks with high levels of vengeance. it's not an issue of learning to play. you cannot outdps a monk tank with the gear required to kill the boss with a dps class. this is a problem. this is the problem.

[Deleted]

It feels quite weird for an oldschool player like me to see tanks being top DPSers, expecially on AoE situations.
I don't know why they didn't just buff base threat & generation for tank classes.

[fangless]

Without vengeance and tanks doing good damage the skill cap for tanks is the lowest out of the three roles for sure. Sure, active mitigation fixed that problem a bit, but doing more dps gives them a clear goal to shoot for. Now, whenever a tank beats me on dps because his vengeance is over 200k... well that annoys me, but other than that I think it's fine for tanks to do 70-80% of a dps's damage.

Vengeance = skill, got it.

[Deleted]

is vengeance broken atm due to people taking intentional damage - yes
is it getting fixed in 5.4 - almost

Tanks using /sit macro's to take big hits from boss's is retarded or using argent defender on heroic lei shen decap, although from reading this thread im pretty sure most were not aware of just how much you can abuse it

[ATron52]

It's disheartening to read so many responses along the lines of, "If you can't beat the tank, l2p!" and "The OP was beaten by a tank and came here to whine!" when the reality is far from that. During the leveling process, tanks do way too much damage - level a character and run dungeons and you'll see what I mean. They won't always be top damage done, but if they actually have a clue of how to play they'll be pretty high up there. That is 100% fact. What is also 100% fact is that in level 90 content, everything from raids to 5-man heroics, tank damage is much higher than we grew accustomed to during the first few expansions. It's not exactly rare to see tanks as the top DPS on trash or certain boss fights. I'm not saying and I have never said they they are top DPS on every fight.

The first fact, leveling tank damage in low level content being so disproportional, in my opinion, it begins to lessen the value of DPS specs. Toning down tank damage and Vengeance won't fix everything in the lower levels, but it'll be a good start. Honestly, I am of the belief that low level content needs to be re-tuned entirely to be more proportionate to level 90 content in terms of DPS and healing. That's another argument for another day though.

I don't think many people would dispute that WoW needs some new blood. Some realms are nearly barren anymore and there doesn't seem to be as much of an influx of new players. While there are an entire books worth of reasons that could be causing this, low level balance being almost entirely ignored isn't helping the situation. Once more I ask for any example in high fantasy / swords and sorcery where the tank characters (sword and shield fighter, characters designed to soak damage, etc...) do as much, or in certain circumstances or more damage than your damage dealing characters (barbarians, wizards, rangers, rogues, etc...). It's pretty much a universally accepted archetype for defense based characters to not deal as much damage as damage dealers. Why is it that so many seem to be against going back to that format now?

One of the most popular counterarguments seems to be that doing awesome DPS is fun for tanks. I won't dispute that - I have a 90 DK and a 65 Guardian I tank on and it's fun seeing if I top charts, it really is. But if in the next expansion they were to make tanking more fun while toning tank DPS down to say 2/3 of an equally geared DPS, I can't see how that would do anything but help the game.

As for the people who claim that tanks should do the highest DPS, because why would a mob attack them when Jim over there is doing twice the damage. I'll use the same rebuttal I had a few pages ago:

Why then do mobs not tunnel vision the healer? That would make more sense, since without heals the group cannot succeed. It's a game and to solve the "I'm gonna hit the guy who hits me hardest" issue they implemented aggro / threat.
If I was a mob, the guy in glistening plate with a sword and shield who is bashing my face in every so often with his shield, while making me weaker and not giving any quarter for me to pass them by is who I focus on.
The ferocious bear who's ripping me apart with it's claws and growling protectively over their friends, gets my attention.
The undead knight who's seen much war in his days, who attacks with necrotic energy and steals my own life energy to supplement his own is who I'm going after.
The bastion of holy radiance, protecting his allies with holy energy and smiting me with blessed shield and using holy energy to fuel his wrath will be my target.
The drunken brawler nimbly avoiding my every attack and shrugging off the ones that manage to land will be sure to feel my wrath.

See, it can make sense. In reality, you wouldn't always attack the one who's hitting the hardest. You may choose to go after the leader - the one standing on the front line leading the charge, taunting your from afar just to get you angry. You would assess the situation and logically determine who the best target is. Because this is a game though, they have to add mechanics to make those kind of ideas work. And again I ask, what other type of high fantasy game has the stereotypical protector doing more damage than the assassin or the berserker?

I'm glad that this thread hasn't turned into a complete flame-fest, I really am. Some bad apples are to be expected, but let's pleases continue to keep it civil and have an actual discussion. Thanks!

[Draknalor186]

what you and several other people in this thread do not seem to understand is that it is mathematically impossible to outdps tanks with high levels of vengeance. it's not an issue of learning to play. you cannot outdps a monk tank with the gear required to kill the boss with a dps class. this is a problem. this is the problem.

remove's the fun of begin the tank.. i dont wanna be a wall.. i wanna be a wall that doe's loads of dmg, so dps but with instant que ^^

[Strakha]

The only fights I topped dmg as a tank were Wind Lord (i think thats the guy with the adds in HoF) and Horridon due to being on the boss a lot and fighting lots of adds.

Single target, not so much. At lower levels tanks are #1 DPS even into the late 70s. I think the vengeance change in 5.4 might help tune down some of the ridiculousness of the monks ox shields and their dps.