5.4 Trinket Discussion

[Deleted]

Thanks for all the continued support with your theorycrafting, fierydemise.

The ranking of Assurance of Consequence is pretty surprising, but then again, like you mentioned, it is the highest ranking ICD trinket (not including agi_5). It feels like that would be the best choice for 'reliability', when coupled with Thoks Tail Tip on progression, depending of course on if they tweak RPPM mechanics any more in the near future.

Hopefully GC replies to that tweet and we get some clarification around the eligible classes for Thoks. I personally think its pretty ridiculous if we will be able to use it, but you never know..

I'm also assuming that the Sigil of Rampage 2/3 Target EP requires that you're able to cleave during the entirety of the encounter. Realistically in SoO this may only occur on Galakras, so it will rarely be worth such a high valuation.

[fierydemise]

I doubt it. I'm willing to bet that something's messed up there. 15% crit/haste/mastery is strong, but I doubt that its going to end up actually being as strong as the multistrike or the CDR trinkets. Also, why is the cleave trinket simming above the multistrike trinket? Don't they proc the same way? With multistrike giving passive mastery?

I'll look at the amp trinket again but I think the implementation on the amp trinkets is correct, it is a very strong effect.

Cleave has higher uptime on its proc than multistrike but that does appear a bit odd, I'll take a look at that. Not sure where people are getting the passive mastery on multistike, on the PTR now there is no passive mastery.

Amp proc is just a ridiculous beast. Are the T14 trinkets on the list including the newest changes now that we've got a PPM list for 5.2 trinkets? I imagine there'll be some shifting (far, far downward).

This does include the RPPM changes for T14 trinkets. I pulled all the trinket stats from the PTR this morning.

[Kulestu]

For a bit there, the multistrike trinket was 2200 mastery, multistrike proc and agility proc. Unless the cleave is proccing roughly twice as often as multistrike, it should be a bit behind.

I'm also a bit worried in general heading into SoO about rogues. Legendary cloak proc appears to be mediocre at best, RPPM nerf's gonna hurt a lot (really should be saved for a time when they can test/adjust more), our tier bonuses appear to be lackluster and the trinket we're looking at don't seem to be all that great.

I'm also curious if the CDR trinket will hit a "breakpoint" with heroic and upgrades where it will suddenly be amazing. Heroic trinket's giving 40% cdr or so, with upgrades (and even warforged), it could easily hit 50%. I know the calculation is weird, but we'll be able to hit about 40% uptime on Vendetta. Combat should be even crazier.

[fierydemise]

Removing old numbers.
Up to date numbers found: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post22009850
Or at my blog: http://roguechat.wordpress.com/2013/08/03/t16-trinkets/

[Kulestu]

I'm still confused on why 3target rampage is outperforming both 2target and multistrike.

[fierydemise]

It looks like the difference between the cleave and multistrike trinkets is the proc. The cleave trinket has a higher uptime proc(15 second duration, 75 second ICD) than the multistrike trinket (20 second duration .46 RPPM) with the same proc strength. The multistrike does more damage than the cleave however the majority of the strength of those trinkets is from the proc, multistrike itself is only worth about 1500 EP.

As for 3 target vs. 2 target, my understanding is the cleave trinket procs mirror onto all targets in range so 3 target should do more than 2 and 1 target because the proc is hitting 3 targets for the same damage as 2 or 1.

[Kulestu]

That seems poorly designed then. Why even put the 2 in game?

[fierydemise]

The simple fix would be to buff the RPPM of the multistrike trinket to .55 which would give it comparable uptime to the cleave trinket. The cleave trinket would still win on two targets but I think that is by design. That said even if Blizzard did buff the multistrike trinket I suspect most people would prefer the cleave trinket because it is ICD vs. RPPM of multistrike.

[Kulestu]

I've only been playing my rogue for this expansion, and have never really gotten into the math behind all of it. In your opinion, do you think that Assurance will bump up with heroic and elite item levels? Having the moves refresh about 45% quicker is pretty incredible, even if the calculation improves refresh rate rather than reducing cooldown rate. I think I saw that Heroic Warforged was 46% without upgrades, which would make vendetta's CD go to 82 seconds.

[fierydemise]

My suspicion is the trinkets should scale pretty similarly so assurance will probably remain is roughly the same place for assassination. Assurance is still a strong choice for assassination, the big takeaway for assassination is how similar all of the trinket EPs are with the possible exception of multistrike. Given the additional utility of assurance from short cd sprint and clos plus the fact that it isn't RPPM unlike ebon detonator it will probably be widely used especially if Blizzard makes the amp trinkets role specific (as they should).

[Kulestu]

I'm surprised there wasn't an agi one.

[whathump]

I'm surprised there wasn't an agi one.

I think they made amplification, cd reduction, cleave and multstrike and picked three from the list for each specialization, or something like that.

[Deleted]

Is it just my simple math or is Thoks Tail Tip far too high valued by shadowcraft?

Assuming it gives a static 13% on all our secondary stats (i know its 13% on critdamage, but i want it to be simple ). i have ~ 30k of secondary stats (sockets should be sec stats > agi). 13% of these 30k are 3900 of secondary stats. thats one of the best statics we get on a trinket ( only the agi-5 trinket has a similar value) . so lets compare these two.
the Static on both trinkets is the same. The proc has the same duration and the same ICD, but the one procs 11761 (=11761 ap) and the other one 11761 mastery.
attack power is at 1 EP and mastery at ~1.3-1.4 EP. The Agi-5 Trinket should be far better then Thoks Tail Tip.
So am i completely wrong in my math or has the Tail Tip something i dont see?

[fierydemise]

The amp trinkets increase crit damage not crit rating which is more valuable. Consider the Agile meta gem is worth about 2200 EP (pulling from the live version of ShadowCraft) for 216 agi and a 3% crit damage increase. That 216 agi is about 600 EP leaving 1600 EP for a 3% increase in crit damage or 533 EP per 1% increase in crit damage. That suggests the crit damage multiplier alone is worth about 7K. Admittedly this is higher then the total value of the amp trinket according to ShadowCraft so I may have misimplemented something or there may be more complicated interactions I'm missing in this quick napkin math, I'll take a look this afternoon, but I wouldn't be surprised if the EP value is correct.

[anjan011]

trinklet #1 3.6 min CD on stampede <3

and come to think about these type of change will really be needed in coming fights.

[fierydemise]

I think you have the wrong sub-forum.

- - - Updated - - -

Some assassination numbers on the amp trinket from ShadowCraft as promised.

trinket_amp_crit:    2723.84857425
trinket_amp_mast:    1990.65516488
trinket_amp_haste:   1376.25177883

[Sicktight]

What fight length are you modeling for those trinket values? Assurance of Consequence's EP value should increase the longer the fight is. That might explain the low EP value for it for assassination.

[SinisterAsc]

For tonight's testing I think I'll go with CD reduction / Ticking Ebon Detonator. Although, if the CD reduction is really that awful I'll probably go RSC / Ticking Ebon Detonator

[fierydemise]

What fight length are you modeling for those trinket values? Assurance of Consequence's EP value should increase the longer the fight is. That might explain the low EP value for it for assassination.

Technically modeling 6 minute fight but for ShadowCraft EP values that shouldn't make any difference. ShadowCraft is simply concerned with the uptime of cooldowns and will consider uptime fractionally so shifting fight length will not change the value of the cd reduction trinket.

For tonight's testing I think I'll go with CD reduction / Ticking Ebon Detonator. Although, if the CD reduction is really that awful I'll probably go RSC / Ticking Ebon Detonator

I'm not sure where you are getting the CD reducer is an awful trinket. It is only about 200 EP behind ebon detonator and has the advantage of not being an RPPM trinket. Given that very small difference in EP values I suspect a lot of rogues will use the CD reducer because of the side benefits of reduced cd clos and sprint and the desire to avoid RPPM mechanics. Also if we do find ourselves switching between combat and assassination from fight to fight during this tier the cd reducer is an amazing combat trinket.

[Deleted]

It is only about 200 EP behind ebon detonator and has the advantage of not being an RPPM trinket.

Imo this is a huge factor in determining what trinkets i want at the start of next tier. Having ICD trinkets proc on pull in comparison to complete randomness of RRPM is very important in our current state, and shouldn't be looked over so easily. People always forget that RPPM can be extremely good (like 5.3 haste build), but on the other hand it can also be utterly useless without luck. With a difference as small as 200 average EP, the ICD trinkets are far from bad.

The way i see it, when you take RPPM > ICD on PTR and progress, you're gonna have a bad time unless the RNG gods look down on you every pull.

Take Lei Shen HC for an example. If you're lucky on the pull with RPPM, you can do ridiculous burst and get some decent procs throughout the rest of fight. But on the next 5 attempts you may not even get a proc within the first minutes of the encounter, and a proc just before entering a transition - rendering the trinkets pointless. ICD on the other hand offers compete reliability on pull and in many cases, when you need it most (exiting transition on lei shen, for another example).