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  1. #321
    Scarab Lord Vynestra's Avatar
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    I await the next set of fire nerfs on the ptr. CHOO CHOO all aboard the fire nerf train :3.

    Also called the "Arcane buff train".


    But seriously, do we really think it's gonna be a CM nerf?

    I am slightly convinced it's gonna be a CM nerf and a flat damage nerf for combustion, fireball and pyro.


    I'd really like to see maybe a change to fire where it only does 150% dmg as a crit, rather than 200%.


    Or something like crit strike after a certain threshold CM no longer multiplies but starts to increase crit dmg or some crap. idk T_T
    Last edited by Vynestra; 2013-07-17 at 08:04 PM.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    I await the next set of fire nerfs on the ptr. CHOO CHOO all aboard the fire nerf train :3.
    The amount of intra-class hate from some Mages on this board is baffling to me. Do you get some sense of personal satisfaction shitting all over others' chosen spec? If the parade of nerfs you've conjured up should actually happen to Fire, would it somehow make you a better player?

    I don't know if you're aware, but you can both play and enjoy playing Arcane WITHOUT hoping another spec is rendered unplayable.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by awildpidgeyappears View Post
    The amount of intra-class hate from some Mages on this board is baffling to me. Do you get some sense of personal satisfaction shitting all over others' chosen spec? If the parade of nerfs you've conjured up should actually happen to Fire, would it somehow make you a better player?

    I don't know if you're aware, but you can both play and enjoy playing Arcane WITHOUT hoping another spec is rendered unplayable.
    I was going to respond with something similar. He has made it obvious with countless posts over the past few weeks that he hates fire. Great. Not all of us do. Not all of us care if he does.

    @Vynestra, STOP IT!

  4. #324
    High Overlord Huevos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    In fact, you explaining it badly.
    The glyph is really really good because you can have a double damage combustion (for double cooldown) just after AT chain pyro resulting in Big ignite. The only 2 important thing is the fact that the glyph increase damage by 100% and that it can be lined with AT.

    And this is why Blizzard want to cut it. Crit is so big in importance that even with only 2 minor change, the result is a huge nerf.
    Why did you prefer?
    having a big RNG resulting in very big damage or very bad result (max-min is around 130k for 200k+ dps) and having to wait for heroic gear for being playable.
    or did you prefer to have less RNG with more average damage but the possibility to play fire from the start.

    The second possibility is what lead Blizzard. They decide to revert all this change for something else. They do the same with Frost mastery, and we still waiting for the solution.
    If this was in response to what I said I'm not sure how you can think I explained it "badly" when you basically just restated most of what I said and did a complete 180 after you first stated it was "dps neutral".

    Anyway, I prefer to have less RNG, if I'm understanding what you're trying to ask. But Blizzard isn't going to fix fire in a way that makes it playable from the start in 5.4. It scales far too well, and they aren't going to be able to fix it to the degree it needs to be fixed without making it horrible in low level gear. Fire's problems stem from its core mechanics, which they won't touch in a minor version patch.

  5. #325
    High Overlord Bopcommander's Avatar
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    Easiest way to nerf us, though it will not happen in this expansion is the removal of our lvl 90 talents. No more mana management talents. Bring us down in line with all of the other classes where their lvl 90 talents do approx 3% to 7%. That's not going to help with the scaling issue, but if you took a flat 15% spell damage off fire, it would be a big nerf across the board, and replaced it with an a talent that may buff single target dps, aoe damage, or a mixture of both as a 3rd option.

  6. #326
    Scarab Lord Vynestra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by awildpidgeyappears View Post
    The amount of intra-class hate from some Mages on this board is baffling to me. Do you get some sense of personal satisfaction shitting all over others' chosen spec? If the parade of nerfs you've conjured up should actually happen to Fire, would it somehow make you a better player?

    I don't know if you're aware, but you can both play and enjoy playing Arcane WITHOUT hoping another spec is rendered unplayable.

    First of all no it's not about me being a better player, it's about me being able to play the spec I like and it actually being viable. Right now as it stands fire is way too strong. If I want to be brought to my raids in 5.4 right now I'd have to be fire. If there are no changes or the changes are not that great, and nothing to balance out arcanes lack of movement I may be FORCED to go a spec I HATE because blizzard can't balance their damned classes.

    Let me ask you how would you feel if you played fire the whole expansion and absolutely HATE arcane and can't stand it, but arcane does over 100k more dps than fire, would you sit there and be like "Oh well dps doesn't matter when we're hitting enrage times, I am just gonna lolololohavefun and play the spec I want!" If you are a progression raider I HIGHLY doubt that'd be your response.

    It's easy to fling mud when your spec is the one sitting pretty, while mine is the one that easily may be un-viable next patch. You can't really talk unless your sitting in mine, or other arcane mages shoes. I hate fire, as it's obvious. It's going to steamroll arcane because arcane has no movement whatsoever, I want to play the spec I really like and enjoy in raids without it being un-viable. Right now fire and arcane are about neck and neck. If they could find a way to keep it that way I'd be pretty damn happy. That's why I am asking for nerfs, so fire is brought down to the level of arcane.

    That's not even including all the movement next tier. How is arcane supposed to survive the heavy movement fights? With an un-sure future for my spec and class I am hoping that arcane will be somewhat viable, amongst heavy movement and that fire will not only be adjusted by that arcane will be given something to move.


    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    I was going to respond with something similar. He has made it obvious with countless posts over the past few weeks that he hates fire. Great. Not all of us do. Not all of us care if he does.

    @Vynestra, STOP IT!
    Stop it? Stop worrying I am going to have to drop my spec next tier, and go fire. And play a spec I hate if I want to raid? If I want to help my raid progress? No. I won't stop it. I am damn passionate about this game and raiding. And I want the spec I play to atleast be viable, and for that to happen arcane needs buffs to movement, and fire needs nerfs.

  7. #327
    I wonder what you are basing this on. Are you just using anecdotal observations to to assess Fire's OP-ness? From what I've seen, there are several classes that are doing comparable dps to Fire. I also have seen pretty good performance from Arcane. If your post history is to be believed, you yourself have been doing very well as Arcane.

    You seem to have done a 180 on your stance on where Arcane is. It seems like you play the victim when it suits you, but then claim to put out great dps as Arcane and you actually do more dps than you do as Fire.

    So which is it Vynestra? Is Fire OP, or are the two specs competetive?

  8. #328
    Scarab Lord Vynestra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    I wonder what you are basing this on. Are you just using anecdotal observations to to assess Fire's OP-ness? From what I've seen, there are several classes that are doing comparable dps to Fire. I also have seen pretty good performance from Arcane. If your post history is to be believed, you yourself have been doing very well as Arcane.

    You seem to have done a 180 on your stance on where Arcane is. It seems like you play the victim when it suits you, but then claim to put out great dps as Arcane and you actually do more dps than you do as Fire.

    So which is it Vynestra? Is Fire OP, or are the two specs competetive?


    Right now they're competitive, but next patch the scaling, even in full bis gear this patch is where fire starts to pull ahead of arcane. Now add the exponential scaling fire has it's going to pull ahead. I saw an arcane mage with the trinkets lust 2 set 4 set etc, doing REALLLY good on a target dummy. Then I saw a fire, who didn't have the trinkets proc right away, who didn't really have anything line up doing just as much...without having the line up arcane had.

    I know that once fire gets the stars to align, like I have seen with combustions on the ptr it's just blowing arcane out of the water.

    ONTOP of that, not only will the damage be higher BUT arcane lacks movement. And as vykina has said 5.4 is very high movement in it's fights.

    So right now both are viable, however next tier is what I am talking about. So don't get an attitude with me you are using my words from this patch and putting them forth like I said those things about next patch. Those are two VERY different things.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    Right now they're competitive, but next patch the scaling, even in full bis gear this patch is where fire starts to pull ahead of arcane. Now add the exponential scaling fire has it's going to pull ahead. I saw an arcane mage with the trinkets lust 2 set 4 set etc, doing REALLLY good on a target dummy. Then I saw a fire, who didn't have the trinkets proc right away, who didn't really have anything line up doing just as much...without having the line up arcane had.

    I know that once fire gets the stars to align, like I have seen with combustions on the ptr it's just blowing arcane out of the water.

    ONTOP of that, not only will the damage be higher BUT arcane lacks movement. And as vykina has said 5.4 is very high movement in it's fights.

    So right now both are viable, however next tier is what I am talking about. So don't get an attitude with me you are using my words from this patch and putting them forth like I said those things about next patch. Those are two VERY different things.
    Ok, so you're actually just bitching about a patch that isn't out yet. Got it. Never mind the fact that they already confirmed that they are nerfing Fire, and haven't even gotten to the numbers yet. TO THE GROUND!!!

  10. #330
    Lacking movement is going to kill arcane more than fire being a better DPS scaling spec will. You'd have to buff arcane an insane amount to make it do competitive DPS while also constantly moving / recasting RoP.

    You don't need buffs, you need an arcane spec that isn't a "turret" design. I don't see that changing, since its always been that way. It's the spec you chose. Arcane is the turret spec. You apparently like that. Deal with it not being best for progression due to it's weaknesses, or play another spec. This whole "I like spec X, it should be competitive all the time" shit is ridiculous. Unless you want all of our specs to be the same shit with different colors this will never happen. They are going to have inherient advantages and disadvantages. Fights or tiers are going to favor specs which can deal with them the best. Arcane can't handle movement. SoO is high in movement. Guess what's not gonna happen? Arcane mages being brought into progression environments that care about clearing content in a timely manner.

    I still haven't seen any numbers posted anywhere in regards to fire vs. X spec or Y class DPS. Where the hell are you people finding these things?

    Also: mages (and most classes) are pigeon-holed into one spec on a regular basis for DPS. The fact we can even play each of our three specs in one tier is completely unheard of. I used to be happy to have add mechanics that let me fuck around with arcane after playing fire for years. Raids aren't about what you care about playing, they're about working together as a team and using your class to it's utmost to kill bosses and get dem purplz. If arcane sucks, bring something better - If it's fire or frost, it doesn't matter. Personal preference doesn't come into play.
    Last edited by Frost1129; 2013-07-17 at 09:42 PM.

  11. #331
    Scarab Lord Vynestra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    Ok, so you're actually just bitching about a patch that isn't out yet. Got it. Never mind the fact that they already confirmed that they are nerfing Fire, and haven't even gotten to the numbers yet. TO THE GROUND!!!

    Still doesn't fix the issue of arcane having no movement.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    Lacking movement is going to kill arcane more than fire being a better DPS scaling spec will. You'd have to buff arcane an insane amount to make it do competitive DPS while also constantly moving / recasting RoP.

    You don't need buffs, you need an arcane spec that isn't a "turret" design. I don't see that changing, since its always been that way. It's the spec you chose. Arcane is the turret spec. You apparently like that. Deal with it not being best for progression due to it's weaknesses, or play another spec. This whole "I like spec X, it should be competitive all the time" shit is ridiculous. Unless you want all of our specs to be the same shit with different colors this will never happen. They are going to have inherient advantages and disadvantages. Fights or tiers are going to favor specs which can deal with them the best. Arcane can't handle movement. SoO is high in movement. Guess what's not gonna happen? Arcane mages being brought into progression environments that care about clearing content in a timely manner.

    I still haven't seen any numbers posted anywhere in regards to fire vs. X spec or Y class DPS. Where the hell are you people finding these things?

    Why have 3 specs per class if one is ever going to be the absolute best? Why not just take the other two specs away, and just force everyone to play the one spec because that's basically what your saying and what they're doing. Honestly, WHY have 3 specs if only one is good for raiding, pvp? okay frost. Two specs. Remove arcane.

    Seriously, if we're not going to have specs that can compete on the same level, then why have them at all? It has been mentioned arcane be using IW next patch instead of RoP for certain fights. It's just annoying that once again, I am forced another spec because blizzard has made piece of shit lvl 90 talents that are restricting arcanes movement.

    Arcane isn't the issue here, it's really the 90 talents that they've said they are revamping just not til next xpac. So I guess I'll have to deal with a patch where arcane will be neglected, kinda like it's been all expansion. Yes it's been viable, but it doesn't mean it hasn't been neglected. Arcane hasn't really been the focal attention of the devs at all, except for the scorch weaving nerf. I don't get how blizzard is just going to let it slide and say fuck arcane, oh and fuck frost too. You are gonna play fire and your gonna like it. What bullshit.
    Last edited by Vynestra; 2013-07-17 at 09:43 PM.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    Still doesn't fix the issue of arcane having no movement.
    This "issue" for the purposes of this conversation, is you calling for Fire nerfs because you don't like it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You could very easily have ignored Fire and lobbied for better tools for Arcane. No one would have a problem with that.

  13. #333
    Scarab Lord Vynestra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    This "issue" for the purposes of this conversation, is you calling for Fire nerfs because you don't like it.
    Wow. You mustn't have read anything I have said. One of the first ways to keep arcane viable is making it so fire doesn't as lore put it "scale to infinity" Most people in here acknowledge fire is extremely strong and needs a nerf. I don't want fire nerfed because I don't like it, I want it nerfed so I can play what I do like. If I have to play fire, then I'd prefer it not be nerfed, but I would much rather have it nerfed and be able to play arcane.


    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    This "issue" for the purposes of this conversation, is you calling for Fire nerfs because you don't like it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You could very easily have ignored Fire and lobbied for better tools for Arcane. No one would have a problem with that.

    Unfortunately that just isn't going to happen. Arcane isn't going to magically be given better tools in 5.4. What WILL happen is fire nerfs that are confirmed. So let me hop on the bandwagon of what will happen rather than hoping for something that in no way shape or form will happen.

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    Still doesn't fix the issue of arcane having no movement.

    Why have 3 specs per class if one is ever going to be the absolute best? Why not just take the other two specs away, and just force everyone to play the one spec because that's basically what your saying and what they're doing. Honestly, WHY have 3 specs if only one is good for raiding, pvp? okay frost. Two specs. Remove arcane.

    Seriously, if we're not going to have specs that can compete on the same level, then why have them at all? It has been mentioned arcane be using IW next patch instead of RoP for certain fights. It's just annoying that once again, I am forced another spec because blizzard has made piece of shit lvl 90 talents that are restricting arcanes movement.

    Arcane isn't the issue here, it's really the 90 talents that they've said they are revamping just not til next xpac. So I guess I'll have to deal with a patch where arcane will be neglected, kinda like it's been all expansion. Yes it's been viable, but it doesn't mean it hasn't been neglected. Arcane hasn't really been the focal attention of the devs at all, except for the scorch weaving nerf. I don't get how blizzard is just going to let it slide and say fuck arcane, oh and fuck frost too. You are gonna play fire and your gonna like it. What bullshit.
    Why do hunters have MM? Why do rogues have anything but whatever the fuck spec they are forced to play? Because there is more to WoW than just raiding and progression. Environments where people do have the ability to choose the spec they enjoy the most. That's not what raiding is about. Raids shouldn't be designed around every spec being viable. And every spec shouldn't be so similar that they have the same pros and cons for a raiding environment. You bring what's best out of what you have to raids. Go play LFR and flex raiding if you want to just do whatever the fuck you want and ignore the other people in your team working towards a goal.

    Nerfing fire also won't let you play arcane. If SoO is even worse than ToT movement wise there is no way fire will be nerfed enough to make arcane competitive. Fire will still be king, especially on movement heavy fights. It just won't be god-mode and taking other DPS spots.
    Last edited by Frost1129; 2013-07-17 at 09:50 PM.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    Wow. You mustn't have read anything I have said. One of the first ways to keep arcane viable is making it so fire doesn't as lore put it "scale to infinity" Most people in here acknowledge fire is extremely strong and needs a nerf. I don't want fire nerfed because I don't like it, I want it nerfed so I can play what I do like. If I have to play fire, then I'd prefer it not be nerfed, but I would much rather have it nerfed and be able to play arcane.
    A "nerf" will never fix Fire. Fire needs a FIX because it also needs to be BUFFED at low gear levels (and this has been true of the past TWO expansions as well, Frostfire spec in 3.0-3.1 being an exception because it was more or less an "elementalist" if you will)

    The problem though is they also need to fix Frost, too, as it's on the opposite side of the spectrum.

    Arcane also needs a mobility fix as it's the least mobile caster in the game, currently.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    Why have 3 specs per class if one is ever going to be the absolute best? Why not just take the other two specs away, and just force everyone to play the one spec because that's basically what your saying and what they're doing. Honestly, WHY have 3 specs if only one is good for raiding, pvp? okay frost. Two specs. Remove arcane.
    While I agree Arcane needs a mobility fix, DPS wise it's in a great spot if you can manage to stand still a lot (read: Play in a 25m group). Fire's too good and Frost is too shit. Arcane is fine DPS-wise (but like the other two specs, could definitely use tweaking to increase QoL).

    No need to get so hostile towards people.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    Nerfing fire also won't let you play arcane. If SoO is even worse than ToT movement wise there is no way fire will be nerfed enough to make arcane competitive. Fire will still be king, especially on movement heavy fights. It just won't be god-mode and taking other DPS spots.
    In addition to this, if they actually bother fixing Frost, I'd even say it too could outDPS Arcane. It sure is more mobile.
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    It's easy to fling mud when your spec is the one sitting pretty, while mine is the one that easily may be un-viable next patch. You can't really talk unless your sitting in mine, or other arcane mages shoes.
    Well, actually, I was there. It was called 5.1. So I can talk. The difference between you and I is that, during the heyday of Scorch-weaving, I wasn't in here clamoring for nerfs to Arcane so that Fire would shine.

    I play whatever spec will help my raid out the most. First it was Fire, then it was Arcane, then it was Frost, and now it's Fire again. Was I having the most fun ever when I was playing a less-preferred spec? No. But I did what I needed to do to help my raid team progress. And, at the end of the day, for me raiding is the most fun.

    Carry the banner for Arcane buffs all you want—no one is going to fault you for that. But you can accomplish that without hoping that someone else's preferred spec becomes garbage.

  17. #337
    High Overlord Huevos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    This "issue" for the purposes of this conversation, is you calling for Fire nerfs because you don't like it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You could very easily have ignored Fire and lobbied for better tools for Arcane. No one would have a problem with that.
    I'm not trying to antagonize anybody here, but it seems to me his desire to see fire nerfed is only to bring it in line with arcane, and since the priority will always be performance over playing your favorite spec, I understand why he's asking for fire nerfs.

    The fixes arcane needs aren't for output, they're for QoL and sustainable dps (mobility). Fire needs significant damage nerfs because of the way it scales. I don't think anyone that's been paying attention to this thread can really argue against either of those points.

    And FWIW I prefer fire. Would I love to see no nerfs for fire? Of course, who wouldn't enjoy their spec being overpowered? But it's not good for the game, and I'd like to have the option to change things up every once in a while. I'd never do that though if fire doesn't get changed, and neither would any mage that cares about their performance.

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    It's easy to fling mud when your spec is the one sitting pretty, while mine is the one that easily may be un-viable next patch.
    Fire in Firelands, Fire in 5.1 (after Friday's Hotfix)/early 5.2 (pre-geared), Frost in 5.3 (post-geared)

    Arcane is the one spec I don't want to play and I can definitely say Arcane has had more "shining" time than Fire or Frost all through Cataclysm (all 3 tiers it was good), and all of MoP thus far.
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  19. #339
    The only reason the Glyph o Combust is stronger is because at pull in theory you can have Alter Time, Meta Proc, Trinkets Proc, Hero, Lightweave proc and a pot going. Under those conditions you get a combust doing significantly better damage than at any point later in the fight.

    Which kind of surprises me from the Blizzard front as they have repeatedly said how they hate mandatory Glyphs, and that one there is a no-brainer as it is currently when it comes to mandatory.

    They should remove that Glyph, it addresses the main culprit causing huge numbers from fire mages at the top of the gear spectrum. We would still get the stars to align on the pull, just won't get to abuse that alignment via a Glyph.

    As to crit levels, CM needs to scale inversely as a flat percentage once at level 90 (before then just give them top number). Consensus seems to be 35% crit smooth's out fire RNG. The Goal of CM should be to keep a fire mage at 35% crit until gear handles the 35% plateau, after which it has no value to the mage. Please note 35% is just the number I commonly see thrown around, could be 30 or 25 or 33, whatever Blizzard believes is the balance point.

    CM would then bump any fire mage under 35% crit to 35% crit and any mage at or over 35% would receive no bump from CM. Or whatever balance point picked.

    Doing that to CM eliminates the stupidity of a fire mage with 50% crit before CM landing at 65% crit after CM, instead they would be at 50% with CM adding no benefit.

    Edit - clarity
    Last edited by gallamann; 2013-07-17 at 10:06 PM.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by gallamann View Post
    Which kind of surprises me from the Blizzard front as they have repeatedly said how they hate mandatory Glyphs, and that one there is a no-brainer as currently when it come to mandatory.
    Same with Ice Lance and Icy Veins glyphs for Frost, too. Both their talent and glyph designs for Mages were an utter failure in that regard, as neither aspect was deemed "mandatory".
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

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