Still no Fire Nerfs and Frost Gets a New Mastery. Further updates at p22

[Abraxis]

Actually Fire isn't that much RNG. RNG is maybe if u do WR 100 or 10. But it's not that big that it puts u from the top to the bottom of the meters. With the upcoming change, they'll take away some RNG for sure but skill cap as well and imo way more skill cap than RNG.

So much firemages simply do not know how to build up combustions right. And if they are randomly lucky they're calling it RNG. But for all the argueing only the maybe 10% or less of the players that are doing it constantly right are taken into account. For all the others the RNG with combustion won't change, just the numbers were lower. But as combustions will be less part of the overalldamge this won't count as much as before and therefore it's less rng for them.

[The Kao]

Actually Fire isn't that much RNG. RNG is maybe if u do WR 100 or 10. But it's not that big that it puts u from the top to the bottom of the meters. With the upcoming change, they'll take away some RNG for sure but skill cap as well and imo way more skill cap than RNG.

You're actually confusing "skill cap" with RNG here. In fact, understanding and playing Fire correctly doesn't really require that much (I find Spriest far worse with all the conditions and priorizing). Thing is, no matter your skill you could still be in for bad luck even if you manage to line up 9 Pyros before a Combustion when the last few just won't crit. The other extreme is possible too, sometimes you just manage to pile up 150k+ Ignite without even knowing why. Sure it's not all RNG but it's a big portion, and from my experience it's definitely big enough to make our meters a lot more unstable than those of other classes.

I kind of understand where the nerfs come from, but honestly I find it ridiculous to hit Fire that hard. I mean, hey it's mage, we are the definition of DPS, all they let us do in a raid is in fact Time Warp and damage, so we really should excel everything that's not mage in return.

[Abraxis]

9 Pyros before a Combustion

So u're definitly one of thoes who have no clue how it works..explain to me: how do 9 pyros fit in one ignite?

when the last few just won't crit.

And who is telling u that u HAVE to fire all pyros before donig combustion?

So here is a perfect example...u call it rng, i call it not having an idea when/how to use combustion

without even knowing why

q.e.d.

[Deleted]

Vynestra, your mages combustion done 13 million on twins?

Ive seen opening combustions do that on 1 target never mind when spreading to twins. (good rng ofc)

But thats the thing, that nerf doesnt hit the average combustions anywhere near as hard as it decimates the top end ones, its actually why that nerf in a roundabout way is quite effective.

[Sephurik]

So u're definitly one of thoes who have no clue how it works..explain to me: how do 9 pyros fit in one ignite?



And who is telling u that u HAVE to fire all pyros before donig combustion?

So here is a perfect example...u call it rng, i call it not having an idea when/how to use combustion



q.e.d.

Even assuming there isn't that much RNG (which I disagree with), how do you control it with shit like RPPM trinkets? You have no idea when they'll proc, and they are completely necessary to proc at the right time all the time to even have a slim chance at ranking, or even pulling better than average numbers.

What if my opener goes completely south because my last fireball and first pyro in the alter time chain just don't crit, even with heroic cha'ye's and breath up? I'm fairly confident I can take advantage of good RNG if it happens, but what if it doesn't? I have honestly not been able to find any solid answers to that question since MoP released.

I would love to be more consistent with my damage, but I really don't see how I could possibly improve besides building a new computer so my frames don't tank so bad in 25 man. If you know something I don't then please share, because I feel I've run out of options.

[Deleted]

Actually Fire isn't that much RNG. RNG is maybe if u do WR 100 or 10. But it's not that big that it puts u from the top to the bottom of the meters. With the upcoming change, they'll take away some RNG for sure but skill cap as well and imo way more skill cap than RNG.

So much firemages simply do not know how to build up combustions right. And if they are randomly lucky they're calling it RNG. But for all the argueing only the maybe 10% or less of the players that are doing it constantly right are taken into account. For all the others the RNG with combustion won't change, just the numbers were lower. But as combustions will be less part of the overalldamge this won't count as much as before and therefore it's less rng for them.

Getting all procs lined up is easy. I have 55% crit during trinket procs/pot (compared to 44% normally) and I still sometimes only crit 0-2 out of my 6-8 pyros in my Combustion build-up. That hurts my dps a _lot_ so there's still some RNG to it. Being able to pop off 9 pyros with trinkets where most of them crit is such a huge difference it's not even comparable.

Combustion is the only factor where RNG affects our dps though. Rest of the rotation doesn't rely on RNG at all when you're at 35% crit or higher.

[Abraxis]

how do you control it with shit like RPPM

That is some not fire specific, and for all classes the same.

What if my opener goes completely south because my last fireball and first pyro in the alter time chain just don't crit

With HU/HS up + all Intproccs Pot & flask...this chance is very low..and even if, u will not end up at the bottom of meters if u playing the fight as intended.

Also i've never claimed that there is no RNG. I said it isn't that much RNG as u often read here.

only crit 0-2 out of my 6-8 pyros

How can u have 6 Pyros with 0 crits or 8 Pyros with just 2? If u have 2 Pyrocrits in ur Ignite it'll be fine anyway.

But for example if ur 2 first crit an u'll do all Pyros before hitting combustion so that at least one of those 2 crits, probably both won't count in that ignite, than it's ur fault and no bad RNG.

[Sephurik]

Getting all procs lined up is easy. I have 55% crit during trinket procs/pot (compared to 44% normally) and I still sometimes only crit 0-2 out of my 6-8 pyros in my Combustion build-up. That hurts my dps a _lot_ so there's still some RNG to it. Being able to pop off 9 pyros with trinkets where most of them crit is such a huge difference it's not even comparable.

Combustion is the only factor where RNG affects our dps though. Rest of the rotation doesn't rely on RNG at all when you're at 35% crit or higher.

I will agree that outside of combustion RNG isn't that much of a factor as gear increases. The problem is combustion makes or breaks your damage, and is based off of getting good luck at specific times.

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That is some not fire specific, and for all classes the same.



With HU/HS up + all Intproccs Pot & flask...this chance is very low..and even if, u will not end up at the bottom of meters if u playing the fight as intended.

Also i've never claimed that there is no RNG. I said it isn't that much RNG as u often read here.

You dodged the RPPM question. It's quite relevant in ToT. It doesn't matter that it is RNG for all classes, it matters because it's additional RNG on top of a spec that is pretty heavily reliant on getting all your crits next to each other. Hell, I'd go so far as to say that the RNG issues right now are more because of those trinkets than because of crits.

[Swizzle]

So u're definitly one of thoes who have no clue how it works..explain to me: how do 9 pyros fit in one ignite?

By launching a Pyroblast every 3 seconds?

[Abraxis]

You dodged the RPPM question.

Yes they've big influence an i think the latest trinket changes whould've been almost enough nerf. But that's something u cannot influence by playstyle.

What i meant for example is:

Be aware of crits while chaining Pyros
Have HU/HS up
Skip PoM Pyro if possible
Do combustion not after all Pyros but after crits

And that are things that lower the rng but many many don't even know about things like that.

Think of all raiding firemages out there, not just those who read forums. And the take the ones here that are here for tipps because of not knowing how it works.

Thats what i meant with 10% or less who doing it constantly right. And those i bet have way less rng in combustion than someone who just hit a makro and fire all pyros and then combust.

[Sephurik]

Yes they've big influence an i think the latest trinket changes whould've been almost enough nerf. But that's something u cannot influence by playstyle.

What i meant for example is:

Be aware of crits while chaining Pyros
Have HU/HS up
Skip PoM Pyro if possible
Do combustion not after all Pyros but after crits

And that are things that lower the rng but many many don't even know about things like that.

Think of all raiding firemages out there, not just those who read forums. And the take the ones here that are here for tipps because of not knowing how it works.

Thats what i meant with 10% or less who doing it constantly right. And those i bet have way less rng in combustion than someone who just hit a makro and fire all pyros and then combust.

This basically makes the answer (for me anyways) "upgrade the computer." My biggest issue is that on pulls and stuff (especially with lust) in a 25 man my fps drops enough for me to not be able to accurately track if my spells are critting or not. It makes sniping a good ignite in between pyros very difficult, since I can lose upwards of 50k on ignite before my combustion button press even goes through. The best part is that my computer isn't that bad. Not very good anymore (first gen i5), but not bad.

SOMEONE SEND ME A NEW PROCESSOR/MOBO.

[Abraxis]

Have a first gen i7, i know what u're talking about. But with some settings lowered and the other hardware being upgraded it's possible. But as u said. That's not RNG that hardware performance. And of course if u doing always all pyros and combust because of FPS, than that is a lack of skill that causes more RNG. (In this special case more lack of hardware as of skill) But u proved what i said.

But after that being said, so isn't it true that doing a good combustion is not just hitting a macro and hoping for good RNG it's something u have more in ur own hands than that.
And that's what i meant.

And if they nerf if that hard they're nerfing the value of doing it the right way constantly because the influence to the overalldamage becomes that much lower. And this is taking away skill cap (and some rng) as well. Because doing it the "simple" chain all pyros without brain and then hitting combustion doesn't really hurt anymore. Or the other way around doing it right wouldn't be rewarded that much anymore and the gap between average und top is getting really smaller which is sad.

[Sephurik]

If Blizzard really needs to keep in combustion as a mechanic for fire, they should roll the Pyro dot and bomb damage back into combustion to help average out bad streaks, and just have ignite's role in combustion be nerfed to something like what is currently on the PTR. It should be rewarding to get the jackpot and take advantage of it, but not super punishing when the stars don't align.

Fat chance of that I guess.

[Deleted]

How weak do you actually think combustion is in comparision to other people's cd's (in the ptr state), even at only 20% it does actually compete with others cd's its just that blizzard had made it so you didnt even have to maximise it to get the benefit you should have, so when you did maximise it was absoloutely mind blowingly stupid.

[Species]

I was talking about live not PTR.


Our fire mage had 92m dmg, 13m of that was combustion.

So 13m x .60 = 7.8m

92m - 7.8m = 84.2m

Seems like a huge nerf, but when our second highest dmg for the fight was 86m....Not really.


Regardless fire will still be the top dps despite the SUPER over the top reactions to the nerf. People are WAY over-reacting. Yeah arcane may pull ahead for a little, but once fire gets some more gear it'll be fine.

You did the math wrong. Combustion was nerf'ed to 20% so the .60 should be .40.

[Methusula]

I was talking about live not PTR.


Our fire mage had 92m dmg, 13m of that was combustion.

So 13m x .60 = 7.8m

92m - 7.8m = 84.2m

Seems like a huge nerf, but when our second highest dmg for the fight was 86m....Not really.


Regardless fire will still be the top dps despite the SUPER over the top reactions to the nerf. People are WAY over-reacting. Yeah arcane may pull ahead for a little, but once fire gets some more gear it'll be fine.

I don't understand why you and others are focusing on Combustion damage in a vacuum and ignoring everything else.

A lot of speccs are getting buffed. RPPM trinkets are getting nerfed, which while they effect everyone, hit Fire hardest due to the double dipping nature of Combustion.

As I've said fight mechanics are changing and need to be learned. Then there's the fact that Fire's crit scaling is leveling out AND there isn't as much crit to be gained this tier. Many changes I didn't even mention, and you want to just port over some numbers from ONE change like there is ANYTHING valid to conclude from it. Sorry, but this is a faulty example and shows us nothing useful.

I'm sure you cherry picked the Twins fight too because the numbers could better support your case.

That fight has a lot of adds that can have Combustion cleaved onto them and inflate the value of Combustion. I can sometimes get a huge chunk of my damage from Combustion if the stars align(trinket procs, HU+HS,AT, Pyro crits, tank pulling a fresh group of adds over).

[Solidpat]

No he didn't. 20% is 40% of 50%. So it got nerfed by 60% (40%+60%=100%).

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I don't understand why you and others are focusing on Combustion damage in a vacuum and ignoring everything else. A lot of speccs are getting buffed. RPPM trinkets are getting nerfed, which while they effect everyone, hit Fire hardest due to the double dipping nature of Combustion. As I've said fight mechanics are changing and need to be learned. Then there's the fact that Fire's crit scaling is leveling out AND there isn't as much crit to be gained this tier. Many changes I didn't even mention, and you want to just port over some numbers from ONE change like there is ANYTHING valid to conclude from it.

You guys should review your math tables. Species is right.

13M damage combustion represents 50% of ignite. 100% of ignite would thus be 26M. And thus 20% = 5.2M, in other words 13M * 0.4

Methusala, you are giving me the impression that you are panicking about the situation. You speak of relevance, but then your comparisons are irrelevant. Truth be told, how other classes got buffed have no impact on our class. 99% of the mages will not change class for 5.4, they might switch specs, but they will still play a mage. It has 0 impact on our mage spec decision. All that matters to us is how Fire, Frost and Arcane compare to themselves in 5.4

And judging from the fights so far in SOO, they are very similar to TOT. So TOT stats are also very reliable.

[Methusula]

You guys should review your math tables. Species is right.

13M damage combustion represents 50% of ignite. 100% of ignite would thus be 26M. And thus 20% = 5.2M, in other words 13M * 0.4

I did, after I typed out a repsonse to Vynestra. Species was right. I was trying to to type out my response on my phone(despite having a laptop right next to me) and I was a bit slow on the review process as a result.

[Vynestra]

I don't understand why you and others are focusing on Combustion damage in a vacuum and ignoring everything else.

A lot of speccs are getting buffed. RPPM trinkets are getting nerfed, which while they effect everyone, hit Fire hardest due to the double dipping nature of Combustion.

As I've said fight mechanics are changing and need to be learned. Then there's the fact that Fire's crit scaling is leveling out AND there isn't as much crit to be gained this tier. Many changes I didn't even mention, and you want to just port over some numbers from ONE change like there is ANYTHING valid to conclude from it. Sorry, but this is a faulty example and shows us nothing useful.

I'm sure you cherry picked the Twins fight too because the numbers could better support your case.

That fight has a lot of adds that can have Combustion cleaved onto them and inflate the value of Combustion. I can sometimes get a huge chunk of my damage from Combustion if the stars align(trinket procs, HU+HS,AT, Pyro crits, tank pulling a fresh group of adds over).

Twins was the fight I actually looked at it..lol


And it was normal twins btw.

And if you only have 13m combustion with lots of cleaving....lol

And I'm focusing on combustion damage because fire mages are going bat-shit crazy that they're gonna be the bottom of the charts when they won't be...

[Deleted]

A lot of speccs are getting buffed. RPPM trinkets are getting nerfed, which while they effect everyone, hit Fire hardest due to the double dipping nature of Combustion.

Not true. Fire had a lot less haste than pretty much all other speccs so fire is the specc losing nearly no DPS via RPPM.

The problem with trinkets not proccing does every specc have and with combustion nerfed, it's anyways not as important anymore to perfectly burst.