Rogues need better aoe for assassination.

[SilkDath]

I am not sure why people think the mechanics of multi rupturing are so awkward and clumsy. You just want to push one button and do meter topping aoe? We have very good sustained single target, bursty single target, with current 4pc.

You have to use a tiny bit of brain power to effectively aoe as a rogue. I guess some people just want one button to press.

Like Kym said, there are some minor QoL improvement that can be made, reworking CT is something they should look at.

[Stryk]

I believe the AoE rotation is mentioned in the guide for Assassination rogues somewhere here but haven't looked at any guides for quite some time. From my understanding, it is best to multi-rupture on 2-4 targets and sticking with the standard rotation. When there are 5 or more targets, I generally target the boss and use Envenom/FoK while maintaining a single rupture on the boss. Although these are just general guidelines for AoEing, you have to take into account the encounter itself. Fights like Horridon HC, I swap from multi-rupturing to targetting Horridon and spamming FoK depending on the number of adds. On the second door, the number of adds quickly goes from 3 to 8 in a matter of seconds so I tend to swap up my AoE rotation when it gets to that point. Rule of thumb for Assassination, never use CT.

I'm going through the pros and cons of each rotation. In this case, you'll send CP's on energy generation, but seeing as all CP's will be spent on Ruptures, you won't have any left for CT's or Envenoms.

I see it more as an investment when you multi-rupture several targets. Sure you're giving up energy + CPs at the start, but that initial investment quickly returns in the form of energy via Venomous Wounds. Even if the add dies prematurely, you get a good chunk of energy back.

But an issue nonetheless.

It's just the way the fight is designed since the heads don't actually "die". In that specific case, it's working the way it's intended.

No, exactly, they do not disappear. They linger on some dead body somewhere (possibly Anticipation related?) and prohibit you from gaining new ones on your new target.

I've experienced this many times during heavy AoE and I've only come up with a few solutions. The reason you stop seeing CPs generated is because the CPs are on a different mob than you're targetting. I'm assuming you're running into this issue when you're spamming FoK and swapping targets to multi-rupture. In that case, make sure you don't have any Anticipation stacks before swapping to a new target otherwise FoK will continue generating CPs on your old target. If you already messed up and your CPs aren't generating on your current target, you can do one of the following:

- Crimson Tempest to dump CPs
- Redirect
- Multilate your target to force CPs to swap but waste the other CPs in return

Redirect is your best bet.

[Dropndestroyrr]

Most times don't waste the energy on CT, the damage isn't worth it. Being able to quickly get back to generating cps on your target is better, so do a recup or refresh snd if you like; costs less energy as well.

[Warstar]

2-3 sometimes even up to 4 targets just single target and you'll do good damage. The Damage of FoK vs single target in those situations is similar enough that it doesn't really matter.

Need burst aoe? Spec marked for death open with an envenom and then start FoKing and it'll do really awesome damage and just keep up your ruptures.

Definately don't need 25+ mobs for FoK to out do combat. We have a combat rogue in our guild and on Tortos I absolutely destroy him... like really bad and we have very similar gear and that's closer to ~10 rather than 25 targets... well maybe a bit more if you count the random turtles flying by.

But even for a fight with 3-5 targets that a combat rogue would excel at with blade flurry unless the bosses have a shared health pool that you can keep them all clumped up together and they don't die off one at a time by the end of the fight assassination will pull ahead anyways just due to it's massive single target advantage. Sure if you could tank the council of elders together for the entire fight and burn them down equally so that a combat rogue has 100% up time with blade flurry on all of them they'll beat us but the nature of the beast is that even if they get some good cleave in by the time the first boss dies the bosses are typically spread out enough that it's down to single target and combat loses any advantage it has.

Crimson tempest sucks for assassination due to the fact that most of assassinations damage comes from poisons which are buffed by the envenom proc. Honestly most aoe situations don't really last long enough that multi dotting 3 targets with rupture and then getting an envenom and then multi dotting some more doesn't really get you the full use out of venomous wounds. From personal experience I find getting envenom up to be more effective. I'm sure that you do actually get more damage out from getting 3 ruptures out and what not but I just feel that by the time I actually do get the 3 ruptures the mobs are almost dead and I never got to use envenom. If you simply rotate 5 point rupture and 5 point envenom you do really good aoe damage but don't have to worry about tab targeting and multi dotting. The damage isn't much different but it's a lot easier.

Honestly though complaining about assassinations aoe damage doesn't make sense. As far as I know and have seen in various raids assassination is THE aoe spec to go as a rogue. Combat sucks and just isn't worth it. Sub.... no. But anything higher than a 3-5 continuous cleave pack assassination will surpass combat. Hell elemental shaman are very much the same as combat. They're amazing for smaller packs of aoe and have the absolute strongest aoe in the game hands down. But then when you get around 10 or more targets assassination out dpses them pretty easy. We're even competitive with hunters and their broken as shit multi shot/multi serpent sting around 10 targets. That's where assassination is the strongest. Low number aoe in more of a cleave situation it is very weak but it has high single target so typically makes up for that. Medium range aoe assassination is by far one of the strongest in that situation. In very high number aoes that where classes like hunters that mass apply a dot come ahead since they're not affected by diminishing returns but those situations are few and far between so doesn't really mater too much.

Only really "buffs" assassination could use in the aoe department would be a cleave buff (but I'm fine with them how they are really it's not there niche and I think it's cool for other classes to have that) and maybe a burstier aoe for a fight like ji'kun if you're on eggs. But, using marked for death really does add burst. The hardest thing about assassination aoe is getting it started getting a rupture rolling and an envenom off and then it hits really hard. It's not as bursty say an elemental shaman on eggs but if you open with a mutilate put up a rupture then marked for death 5 cp envenom and then fok spam it's a little slow to start but by only 3 seconds and then you have a normal rotation strong aoe going out.

[Stryk]

In my opinion, rogues do not need any more buffs. We are very overpowered as is and will be even more so during the upcoming progression raiding. Our single target damage is excellent, AoE damage is good, we take 65% reduced dmg from AoE effects, we provide a 20% raid CD for 7s, we have interrupts, we have up to 8s stun as combat, we are able to mass resurrect after wiping, we provide a misdirect with a damage bonus, cloak of shadow negates many mechanics and the list goes on. At this point in time, I'm just hoping Blizzard doesn't nerf rogues.

With the 5.4 CD reduction trinket coming out, we're going to be even better :/

[Deleted]

I like the AOE system, I usually maintain 2cp Ruptures on 3 targets using FoK and weave in Envenoms to maintain SnD and for the bonus poison damage. they should probably simplify though, something like allowing Crimson Tempest to proc Venomous Wounds, and if you apply CT to a target that already has the debuff it does the full damage instantly and refreshes it (or just allow CT to stack).

[Deleted]

Our AoE is rather clunky in my opinion and seeing other classes instantly top meters with 1-2 buttons is a bit ridiculous. But CT should be buffed or reworked as currently it's not really worth it unless you are Subtlety. I too, was thinking about that they should allow it to proc Venomous Wounds. It's kinda strange that it doesn't do that already, considering it procs from our other bleed effects. However, when there is like 15+ targets it might boost our damage insanely due to increased energy regeneration from all the procs, so maybe it should have slightly reduced proc chance from CT. But then again, other classes usually deal a lot more damage in similar situations, such as hunters and warlocks.

[undeadrogue]

The only time I use CT is when I "lose" my CPs on a mob & rather than tab through everything, will just use a CT & then get back into multidotting rupture/FoK'ing/envenoming.

It's a shame I almost never use it

[Psychowolf]

Crimson Tempest should just be able to proc a less potent Venomous Wounds (50% chance to proc for half damage and 5 energy regen, might need more tweaking). This would fix most peoples woes with Assassination AoE, not make it too powerful (I hope), and give Crimson Tempest a reason to be used as an AoE finisher for Assassination.

[Deleted]

Redirect glyph will make assasination AoE a fair bit nicer, for all those times when you accidently FoK off a target that has rupture.

[Ssith]

the easiest way to... ugh, i'm about to hate myself... declunkify assassination's AoE would be CT ticks returning energy. whether it's the same percent as rupture or lower due to more targets is something for them to math out. they'd probably have to change CT a bit, too, to prevent single CP CT's from being just as powerful, in terms of assassination AoE, as 5 point ones.

FoK to 5 CPs, CT, FoK to 5 CPs, Env, repeat - sounds good to me, at least.

[Linneth]

Definately don't need 25+ mobs for FoK to out do combat. We have a combat rogue in our guild and on Tortos I absolutely destroy him... like really bad and we have very similar gear and that's closer to ~10 rather than 25 targets... well maybe a bit more if you count the random turtles flying by.

I think you misundertood me, I was talking about the required number of mobs as COMBAT for FoK to beat Blade Flurry. I was trying to say that Combat AoE is broken because you have Blade Flurry, FoK and CT; but in the end you only use Blade Flurry and call it a day because FoK hits like a wet noodle, requiring a retarded number of targets to beat Blade Flurry cleave/AoE. A good design would be one where you need to choose between Blade Flurry or FoK/CT based on the number of targets.

[Deleted]

Again, it's not a matter of numbers but design. What is our AOE rotation EXACTLY? Does anyone have a clear answer, or mathematical evidence to prove that one set rotation stands above the others? The fact that we have like 3 potential aoe-rotations as Assassination is exactly what I'm talking about. (One is essentially our standard single target rotation with Mutilate swapped for FOK, then we have FOK+CT, and the Rupture-multi dotting with FOK.)

And why is it an issue? I like the fact having multiple potential rotations.

On another note, if Redirect is going to be cooldown-less, what's the point of having CP's stack on the target in the first place? Might as well take it one step further and just throw them on the rogue immediately.

Redirect costs a GCD.

[Deleted]

If you want good AOE roll a MAge! If you want multishot, roll hunter or a class that multidots or has a good cleave!

Please.

If spreading Combustion is classified as 'good' AoE, then I'd like to hear what you call Warriors, Monks, Hunters, Warlocks and Elemental Shamans, to name a few.

[Velerios]

The easiest solution would be that blizzard simply buff CT; CT does double damage on targets affected by one of your lethal poisons.

[Warstar]

This thread is getting a little asinine. Every class has a niche for something that they're good at. Assassination rogues are good at certain things. Combat rogues are good at others. Every class is strong in certain areas and weak in others. Take what you have and be happy about it. You don't need to be the best at everything.

Rogues are not weak at all in aoe and in fact Assassination is one of the strongest period. Certain classes will cleave better thats fine since a lot of those once they get to a larger aoe start to not do as good and other classes take the lead.

Do some classes have an easier time for aoe and just press one button? Sure. But then assassination is also one of the most laid back single target rotations that's also one of the most forgiving. Playing an arms warrior after playing my rogue makes my hands hurt due to trying to make sure I fill every GCD spamming my buttons.

A lot of people want their class to be the top damage at every point for ever fight in every way possible. That won't happen and if it does then other classes start complaining. It's called balance. You have your time in the sun and then other classes do. I think a bigger threat rather than calling for buffs is to be happy where we are and pray that we don't get nerfed. Rogues have very strong single target dps and then strong mass aoe. They take the least amount of damage than any other class at a very minimal cost. Feint is beyond OP right now. Cloak of shadows is the only immune mechanic that doesn't have a devastating penalty (think of paladin bubble dps reduction or mage ice block everything reduction). We have a strong raid cooldown with smoke bomb. We can help tanks with a misdirect that can also be used as a dps increase to other people. Rogues are about as strong of a class to have in a raid as they ever have been.

As far as clunky or having to push multiple buttons that makes me happy that I have to think what I'm going to do next and that wow hasn't turned into one of those retarded console games that you get through the entire game just pushing X at certain times and it's closer to a movie than an actual video game.

[Deleted]

And why is it an issue? I like the fact having multiple potential rotations.

We're all entitled to our preferences.

To me, the fact we have multiple AOE-rotations shows a clear lack of intended design. We don't "actually" have 3 rotations - we(the rogue community) have constructed 3 potential rotations from the scraps the devs have thrown at us. Crimson Tempest is either a completely wasted ability slot or meant to be specially tailored for Subtlety - why is it a baseline ability? Why doesn't it have some gimmick attached to it so we'll want to use it as Assassination as well?

And forgive me, but I really do not understand the whole elitist "I enjoy needless complexity, my class is for real gamers." sentiment. Warlocks were needlessly complex in Cataclysm and look what happened to them...

Redirect costs a GCD.

Redirect doesn't "cost a GCD" - Redirect only costs a GCD.

That's a very important distinction to make, which brings me back to my earlier point, why not just make CP's stack on rogues entirely. With the introduction of this glyph, I'm pretty confident they will do just that. It's probably just too extensive to do so in a patch. 6.0 will tell, I guess.

[Deleted]

To me, the fact we have multiple AOE-rotations shows a clear lack of intended design. We don't "actually" have 3 rotations - we(the rogue community) have constructed 3 potential rotations from the scraps the devs have thrown at us. Crimson Tempest is either a completely wasted ability slot or meant to be specially tailored for Subtlety - why is it a baseline ability? Why doesn't it have some gimmick attached to it so we'll want to use it as Assassination as well?

And forgive me, but I really do not understand the whole elitist "I enjoy needless complexity, my class is for real gamers." sentiment. Warlocks were needlessly complex in Cataclysm and look what happened to them...

As you say, you're entitled to your preferences. Having a choice to make instead of a straightforward path gives, imo, more enjoyment. Assassination is without any doubt one of the easiest spec in the game, having a (small) part of it being not totally obvious adds fun -for me, again.

And you're quick to judge. I don't see how liking multiple choices instead of an unique way equals "omg omg i need my class to be real gamers only". Cmon, we are talking about assassination, the 3 buttons-2 buff spec. Having 3 potential aoe rotations isn't 'needless complexity', it gives depth to the spec.

[Deleted]

At 10 stacks of Renataki and 6+ targets that will live through a 5CP duration CT it is actually not half bad.

[yurano]

AoE on assassination ain't bad , but building up a rupture on 3-5 targets is annoying as hell.

They should just make Venomous Wounds work with Crimson Tempest and somehow augment Crimson Tempest to be inferior to Rupture until 3+ targets.