Itemsquish reminder

[TyrantWave]

They actually use float.

Same difference for the eventual scale, I'm just keeping it simple for the thread at hand.

[Thyranne]

Same difference for the eventual scale, I'm just keeping it simple for the thread at hand.

It means that the cap is a lot bigger than people think

[Rizendragon]

A rogue soloed Patchwerk in Naxxramas25 in WotLK.

That was done with extremely creative game mechanics, and if I'm not mistaken he was reprimanded for it by Blizzard. We're talking about same expansion content being solo'd by someone that isn't gaming the system and it's only one tier removed. This is a problem.

[Thyranne]

That was done with extremely creative game mechanics, and if I'm not mistaken he was reprimanded for it by Blizzard. We're talking about same expansion content being solo'd by someone that isn't gaming the system and it's only one tier removed. This is a problem.

You mean the DK using the heroic buff from Lei Shi (just heard about it, I don't know what buff it is)?

[Rizendragon]

What issue exactly?

This one:

This is something people refuse to understand.

Back in for exemple BC the difference between two tiers of pvp gear were like 12 strengh per item. Numbers you could overcome with skill against gear.
Now we're talking about nearly 150 str difference per piece of gear.
And that is just the difference between two pvp tiers.

It is like a scissor, the farer you reach the end the bigger the gap will become.

Relative character power is too bloated. It'll also fix the issue of soloing content of the same expansion (creative mechanics use aside)

[Deleted]

You're right, they do need to calculate more than that.

However, even with a squish, they'd still need to calculate the exact same steps. Only one of these steps is currently in "danger" of needing a type change to Long Long - the final step where damage is subtracted from the bosses health pool. Yes, this does need to be fixed, and yes, I do reckon Blizzard have had people working on that very issue since MoP landed.

Why do I assume the servers are using Ints for damage calculation? Because I'd be more surprised if they didn't.

I am not sure if they use Ints for the calculation, to be honest I realy think they use the raw bits to speed up the calculation.
They even stated they refused to give every class 1,5sec global cooldown back in the days because of the calculations would be speeded up aswell.

Honestly we both can just speculate about it, I am just refering to what blizzard said at blizzcon when it was announced.


I just personally would love to see that squish because numbers up to 10 000 are more numbers I use in my world than numbers up to a million and above.

Those big numbrs just feel unnatural to me.

[TyrantWave]

It means that the cap is a lot bigger than people think

Hm, true. By quite a significant exponent too. Showing how even using the (in comparison) tiny Int is still 2,000* off should get an idea of just how much this isn't an issue.

Also, as Blizz have noted that caps are being reached, I'm using the lower common value for calculations.

If we turn around and use Floats:

Current max cap: 3.402823466 E + 38. Let's say, somehow, we break that.
Let's now use a Double. New cap: 1.7976931348623158 E + 308

[Shaiandra]

I posted something on the official WoW forums about the item squish a few weeks ago... it was long and thus very few people read it. Nyeh. But long story short,

- I'd like to see a number squish mainly because of secondary stat growth being too exponential. In a way I don't like that in ToT gear I'm able to reach melee hit cap with only 2 items (and if I have more than say 4 items with Hit, I have too much hit even if reforged off). Also, I dislike needing say 600 crit for +1% crit for example. I prefer when numbers matter more, and dislike when 5 crit rating means +0.00% crit.
- I'm not opposed to dealing 200k dps or like 350+k in a single hit. So I'm not really against large DPS numbers in that regard.

- The main idea: I think implementing a stat squish would be difficult/strange because I believe the main two goals of a squish would be:
1) We want player stats to grow less exponentially.
2) We want players to still grow exponentially in power relative to non-current content.

If you don't do #1, there's no point in squishing. If we were to just divide all numbers by 10 for example, then low levels get messed up when a level 1 has 4 HP, a level 60 item grants approximately +0 stats, and we'd be in the exact same place next expansion wondering if WoW needs another squish.

If you don't do #2, anyone who likes soloing old content is screwed, and there's less feeling of advancement.

And in short, I think to achieve those two you'd need some system that compares your stats (probably both character level and item level) with your targets', such that you do far more DPS against lower level enemies than those closer or above your level.

Would people be opposed to some system where an i520ish character might do 30K single-target DPS in Throne of Thunder, but do 35k DPS while in Mogu'Shan Vaults and 2M DPS while in Molten Core?..

[Frolk]

Your brain cant handle 6-7 digit numbers?

[Rizendragon]

You mean the DK using the heroic buff from Lei Shi (just heard about it, I don't know what buff it is)?

It's 15% increased attack and casting speed. That shouldn't be enough to allow one person to kill a raid boss.

[Thyranne]

This one:



Relative character power is too bloated. It'll also fix the issue of soloing content of the same expansion (creative mechanics use aside)

And the % is still the same. I failed to find the issue.

[corebit]

A rogue soloed Patchwerk in Naxxramas25 in WotLK.

Basically proving my point, the whole stat inflation got out of whack beginning with Wrath.

[Deleted]

Either way. going from 10k dps to 11k dps is just as noticeable as going from 1M dps to 1,1M dps. No difference. Its not more difference.

That's an interesting and understandable point of view from a mathmatical side. But what's about the psychological side?

The gap between start and finish has widen.. a lot. I don't remember anyone approaching a last tiers boss with a sole character and being successful just from the itemlevel inflation (he beat the enrage timer after all which was designed for a full team of ten people just a few months back). Going from a full tier 1 to a full tier 2 character added decent amount of health, damage & heal. Going from an entry raid level geared character to a heroic thunderforged double upgraded (with extra cheese and onions! ) geared character now nearly doubles your damage output or survivability. This is super scary, at least to me.

[Choptimus]

Basically proving my point, the whole stat inflation got out of whack beginning with Wrath.

Doesn't prove shit. He killed it beacuse he could shadowstep a placable object and make the boss spend 1minute+ pathing around the instance to get to him.

Stop talking about shit you are clearly clueless about.

[JohnBrown1917]

Why does everyone who don't want the squish say stuff like: "Its just numbers why do you care?"
If they didn't care about numbers like they say why are they against the squish?

It takes development time.

[Rizendragon]

It takes development time.

Lol that is a pretty weaksauce argument. Especially since it'll be an expansion that brings it to fruition. They start working on the next expansion before the current one is out. That's at least 2 years of development time. With how large their teams are it shouldn't be very difficult for Blizzard to work something out to bring numbers to a more manageable level.

[Moralgy]

My only beef with the current situation of wow is that as you level a new character it feels very much like an Asian mmo with how quickly everything scales.

[JohnBrown1917]

I was pointing out where it happened, how it happened, and why it should have been addressed already. It will help alleviate the bloat during an expansion. Right now if you're a fresh 90 and you were to go against a fully geared heroic raider you'd be doing 1/4th of his damage, and we're not even done with the expansion yet. That isn't how character progression should work really. This kind of disparity lends a hand to arena and pvp imbalances and it really puts the curve high for fresh alts and brand new players coming to the game mid-late expansion.

A freshly dinged 80 did around 2k dps, while hc raiders at 80 could reach around 16k~ dps.

So what changed?

- - - Updated - - -

Lol that is a pretty weaksauce argument. Especially since it'll be an expansion that brings it to fruition. They start working on the next expansion before the current one is out. That's at least 2 years of development time. With how large their teams are it shouldn't be very difficult for Blizzard to work something out to bring numbers to a more manageable level.

But its not needed yet. It might be needed in 10 or 15 years or so, but not right now.


Why waste development time on a visual change that could cause a huge backslash?

[Boricha]

Im curious why, even after the item squish, that last red line rises so drastically faster than the rest, why can't it only rise a small amount like the rest....Yes though I really hope the item squish comes in the next expansion.

[Deleted]

It takes development time.

Blizzard seems to be waymore limited on artists as on system designers or programmers.

But since approx. half of the Titan team joind WoW again, they will have enough manpower to get everything done and find the time for the item squish.

- - - Updated - - -

Im curious why, even after the item squish, that last red line rises so drastically faster than the rest, why can't it only rise a small amount like the rest....Yes though I really hope the item squish comes in the next expansion.

Because there has to be a gap between the last expension gear and the new one, or there would be no reason to upgrade from the latest raidtiersets to the new heroic dungeon items.