So much for Sub in 5.4

[Stryk]

PTR hasn't ended quite yet so it's possible they will tune that 4% to a possible 6-8%? But I do agree 4% is quite low especially if you factor in the time the 4pc bonus procs. If it procced at the very start of a fight when you still have intial stealth ambush/SD/Vanish/Prep, you'd be delaying either the proc or SD for a good 10 seconds.

[fierydemise]

Bumping the bonus to 6% puts the bonus at about 5000 EP which is a fair amount for a set bonus. Most set bonuses are in the range of the 2-4K EP. Realistically the 4% chance is about where the bonus should be, even very conservatively modeling FW overlap its hard to reduce the bonus below about 2.5K EP and the bonus is probably around 3-3.5K with more realistic assumptions about FW overlap.

[Icecreamcake]

Anyone care to share a link to all this?

[Kael]

Anyone care to share a link to all this?

It's not 100% transparent (I don't think anyone's math is at THIS moment), but:

Updated over at my blog here:
http://roguechat.wordpress.com/2013/...inary-numbers/

Summary of changes:
Combat 2pc: +1000EP
Assassination 2pc: -2000EP
Sub 2pc: -1000EP
Sub 4pc: -4000EP
Assassination bug fixed that was overvaluing it by approximately 2x, it appears to be a pretty weak bonus now.

Sorry for the delay, got back from a conference last weekend so I've been trying to catch up at work.

If anyone else feels like explaining the whole background or linking SimC page results, you're welcome to, but that's really above-and-beyond the call to do the math.

[fierydemise]

You can see good implementations of all but sub 4pc over on github.
https://github.com/dazer/ShadowCraft-Engine

The sub 4pc numbers are in my personal build which I'm not currently hosting anywhere (maybe I should host them on github) but I'll put the relevant code snippets here for clarity in a few hours.

EDIT: Below, no FW overlap handling because I'm still don't have a good way to model that.

        if self.stats.gear_buffs.rogue_t16_4pc_bonus():
            print attacks_per_second['ambush'], attacks_per_second['backstab'], self.find_weakness_uptime
            new_ambush_per_second = .04*attacks_per_second['backstab']
            attacks_per_second['ambush']+=new_ambush_per_second
            attacks_per_second['backstab']-=new_ambush_per_second
            self.find_weakness_uptime += (600*new_ambush_per_second)*shadow_dance_frequency
            print attacks_per_second['ambush'], attacks_per_second['backstab'], self.find_weakness_uptime, 60*new_ambush_per_second
            print "========================================="

[Mallybabe]

They just buffed the dmg of backstab and hemo in the ptr, not sure if thats gonna be helpful with the 4pc nerf, but something to look forward to. Hopefully they make sub/combat competitive with Assassination.

[zerynax]

They also nerfed Eviscerate, which hurts both Sub AND Combat but leaves Assassination unscarred and even further ahead as of right now

[Deafyx]

Not going to lie, I am really hoping they leave Assassination as the top raiding spec. Combat is just way to boring/spammable, and Sub has the position requirement which I dread having to deal with.

[Crookids]

Not going to lie, I am really hoping they leave Assassination as the top raiding spec. Combat is just way to boring/spammable, and Sub has the position requirement which I dread having to deal with.

Couldn't agree more. I hope Assassination stats top as they work on improving Combat mechanics, not just DPS. Playing the spec is terrible.

[Kaluna]

I would really like to be able to swap spec depending on the encounter. For (bad maybe) example. Patchwerk-like single-target : go sub. Mostly single-target where you need to move : go assa. Few adds : go combat. Or play the spec you prefer, they are all viable.
Like lock can do right now.
The most boring thing is playing one spec for the whole tier (expansion).

[SilkDath]

They didn't really nerf Evis by much, 10% dmg reduction, but increased AP scaling 13%, I can't follow their reasoning though.
I was also talking with another rogue about what sub should be all about, and we ended up agreeing it should be about colossal finishers, with the CP-generators just there to effect the build up.
The CP generators are "combat" so to speak, and SUBTLETY is not about out and out combat, its about unleashing from stealth which we do with ambush and FW, weaving our way to a huge finisher, but evis hits so weakly that it doesn't seem to fit.

I dont mind if backstab isn't a huge hitter, it should just be a means to get to our massive finishers.

But they just buffed BS and 'nerfed' Evis, so go figure.

[the9tail]

There is 3 reasons for a nerf to Evis.
1. Moving the damage from the back end to the front end (with the buffs to backstab/hemo)
2. Fixing a scaling issue and moving more of the damage bonus back from +dam to the %.
3. Both

At the moment, I am hovering between 2 and 3...