Why do lesser skilled players feel entitled to see content?

[alturic]

You'll be doing 250k in 548 gear so of course if you go into Stone Guard and swing an axe for 30 seconds you'll be the winner. There is absolutely nothing you can do to avoid being top dps when you go into LFR in heroic gear, except getting locked out of the encounter. Why are you telling us this as if it was some kind of news?

Have you forgotten how bad the dps is from low-end gear? And that no one in his right mind bothers to gem or enchant any LFR gear until it is likely to be the best he can get for at least a few weeks?

Well, players in your case should be gemming/enchanting/reforging the gear as soon as they leave the raid, no? You said yourself normal is too difficult so you shouldn't be replacing the gear, right? A player is "bad" gear can out dps a bad player in "good" gear almost every time. Simply having "good" gear doesn't mean you will magically mesh into an actual heroic raiding guild.

[Normie]

stating opinion as fact is not actually a fact. That is all

You only have to examine stats on WoWprogress as well as follow comments Blizzard has made on the subject. It's obvious. Beyond obvious.

[alturic]

I never said anything, at all, about gobs of time. If you think I did, you haven't understood what I've written.

You said "It's a fact that normal is basically a watered-down heroic mode that is inaccessible to casual groups that are actually casual, as opposed to highly skilled players who call themselves "casual" just to diminish others." What exactly do you define "casual" as? To me, it's someone who can't devote a lot of time to a game.

So, normal is difficult to you (I'm fairly certain you were the one to say that), why exactly?

[anaxie]

You'll be doing 250k in 548 gear so of course if you go into Stone Guard and swing an axe for 30 seconds you'll be the winner. There is absolutely nothing you can do to avoid being top dps when you go into LFR in heroic gear, except getting locked out of the encounter. Why are you telling us this as if it was some kind of news?

Have you forgotten how bad the dps is from low-end gear? And that no one in his right mind bothers to gem or enchant any LFR gear until it is likely to be the best he can get for at least a few weeks?

Why the fuck would I go into stone guards? Furthermore why should I not assume players in LFR don't have a handful of 502 items giving them a rough itemlevel of atleast 490+? Newsflash you could do over 50k dps in 548 blues. Most LFR players I see are incapable of surpassing this number. And sorry 30% uptime on a boss would give essentially make my 250k look like I was doing 75k dps the entire fight. I shouldn't be anywhere near the tip top.

[Normie]

Well, players in your case should be gemming/enchanting/reforging the gear as soon as they leave the raid, no? You said yourself normal is too difficult so you shouldn't be replacing the gear, right? A player is "bad" gear can out dps a bad player in "good" gear almost every time. Simply having "good" gear doesn't mean you will magically mesh into an actual heroic raiding guild.

Players in my case what?

My server is dead; there is one progression guild. The only times I am available semi-reliably are from around 1AM Pacific on. I have a 300ms ping. There is no organized raiding for me. That's fine, I don't care.

Therefore, I gem and enchant gear when it amuses me to do so.

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The fact that beating the main villain and saving the world will take time and dedication?
A main villain that threatens the peace of all Azeroth isn't beaten in 3 pulls.

This lore thing, the people who are into it seem to think that the other 95% of players give a rat's ass, which really they (me for example) don't. I'm not dismissing it as much as continually confused that people are so much into it.

Now, the fact is, when I went to see Return of the King, Sauron was defeated on my first visit. It still seemed pretty epic.

[anaxie]

It's a fact that normal is basically a watered-down heroic mode that is inaccessible to casual groups that are actually casual, as opposed to highly skilled players who call themselves "casual" just to diminish others. That's been the case since Heart of Fear. It's "progression" difficulty being presented to players who aren't interested in progression.

So they go to LFR instead, or just don't bother.

Flex might get some of them back but only because of lower difficulty, not because of being "flexible."

Are you still this angry that I define myself as casual? Because you know. I am casual.

Does it anger you that there are words better used to describe players who don't try at the game then casual? Perhaps Lazy? Unmotivated?

[Otimus]

Why the fuck would I go into stone guards? Furthermore why should I not assume players in LFR don't have a handful of 502 items giving them a rough itemlevel of atleast 490+? Newsflash you could do over 50k dps in 548 blues. Most LFR players I see are incapable of surpassing this number. And sorry 30% uptime on a boss would give essentially make my 250k look like I was doing 75k dps the entire fight. I shouldn't be anywhere near the tip top.

That's half their fault, and equally half Blizzard's fault for not teaching people how to play their game properly in the last 8 years, coupled with making major changes to classes every other expansion :x

Hopefully proving grounds help, but the inherent problem there is that someone has to WANT to do those, rather than it being things that teach the players through the course of their "adventure".

[alturic]

The few people that you know in WoW don't make a dent in the other million+ that DO like the feature.

There's a difference between "liking" the feature... and doing it, as dumbed down as it is, because it's the only thing you have the skill for. Of course if it's the only thing you are capable of doing (at a skill level) you will like it. Are you trying to say, in all honesty, that WoW has millions of players who are terrible at playing their class and moving from things? As elitist as it might sound, the information is out there to easily see exactly what gem, enchant, reforge and rotation you should be doing to achieve top dps.

THAT is my problem with players, I don't give two shits if you think I'm a douche because I can raid more than you, but to simply say "fuck you guys, it's a game, I'm playing how I want regardless of just how wrong I am (in the design of the game, hint, there really is a "right" way of gemming/enchanting/reforging/rotation and a wrong way, purely in the design of the game, not "made up" by elitists that say it SHOULD be done this way) and regardless of you 9/24 other people who are trying to say I don't deserve to be in your guild" that, to me, is you (the player) having the wrong attitude.

Note: When I say YOU, I'm not referring to you, Celticmoon. There is a HUGE difference to someone simply not giving a shit and saying "I don't care that I only do 20k DPS, I'll play it how I want regardless of how wrong I actually am" and someone saying "I only do 20k DPS and I'd love to get better, but I just don't know where to start".

My point is, the tools are abundant, actually "caring" to do it, is a completely different story. I think players who are "content" (as angry as it makes them) with being sub par really don't know just how readily available, and big of an improvement they could do if they simply asked, or cared.

[anaxie]

Because elitist such as yourself restrict players out of the content by placing ilvl restrictions unobtainable outside of normal/heroic modes. This goes for heroic scenarios where my server wants a minimum ilvl of 520 to do them. Quit being gearscore jerks and loosen up, No one can get in and learn for themselves and move on in the game anymore because of people like you.

Why so angry? Maybe you should chill out and maybe people will play with you more. MMOs are a team oriented game. You have to work together.

[alturic]

Players in my case what?

My server is dead; there is one progression guild. The only times I am available semi-reliably are from around 1AM Pacific on. I have a 300ms ping. There is no organized raiding for me. That's fine, I don't care.

Therefore, I gem and enchant gear when it amuses me to do so.

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This lore thing, the people who are into it seem to think that the other 95% of players give a rat's ass, which really they (me for example) don't. I'm not dismissing it as much as continually confused that people are so much into it.

Now, the fact is, when I went to see Return of the King, Sauron was defeated on my first visit. It still seemed pretty epic.

If you are content, great. I can guarantee you that there is guilds somewhere, on one of the 250+ servers (in both the US and EU alone) that would love to have you a part of their team though.

[Dreknar20]

And that no one in his right mind bothers to gem or enchant any LFR gear until it is likely to be the best he can get for at least a few weeks?

and why should just a behaviour be rewarded with anything at all?

[anaxie]

That's half their fault, and equally half Blizzard's fault for not teaching people how to play their game properly in the last 8 years, coupled with making major changes to classes every other expansion :x

Hopefully proving grounds help, but the inherent problem there is that someone has to WANT to do those, rather than it being things that teach the players through the course of their "adventure".

Hopfully it helps but currently the completely worthless 5 mans , scenarios , removal of group quests from leveling, and the LFR experience does not facilitate group play and something seriously needs to change or we will be in this hopless cycle where alot of the players who want to make the jump find Normal modes inaccessable due to the jump required from content that literally teaches you nothing about how to play the game.

This is not NORMAL modes fault. This is the intro contents fault. Specifically 5 mans and the way they have deteriorated but fixing 5 mans won't do anything moving forward since LFR is the catch up mechanism. But people cry unrelentingly about wipes and boss mechanics see <Garalon , Durumu, Lei Shen> how they were launched on LFR. Players shit their pants, sure they still killed it that week easily but it still got nerfed DESPITE being killed by them.

I guess if the boss doesn't bend over and ask for you to violate it by turning him into an interactive cinematic that produces gear upgrades like a slot machine then it needs to be nerfed. God forbid they learn how to kill the boss properly to translate to Normal mode.

[Otimus]

Players in my case what?

My server is dead; there is one progression guild. The only times I am available semi-reliably are from around 1AM Pacific on. I have a 300ms ping. There is no organized raiding for me. That's fine, I don't care.

Therefore, I gem and enchant gear when it amuses me to do so.

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This lore thing, the people who are into it seem to think that the other 95% of players give a rat's ass, which really they (me for example) don't. I'm not dismissing it as much as continually confused that people are so much into it.

Now, the fact is, when I went to see Return of the King, Sauron was defeated on my first visit. It still seemed pretty epic.

Frankly, I don't think trying to kill a boss, and being murdered by it over and over is "epic". That's ...gamey. Personally epic from a personal triumph, absolutely, but from a lore standpoint, it's disjointed and stupid. "Dedication" and "Effort" would be setting up a war, and battling, and winning. Not going to fight the great villain, dying, and magically coming back to life, and going to his room where he stands still waiting, and dying again :x While other instances of other people also do the same :x That's not epic. That's the consequence of game design.

Personal triumph being epic is one thing, and quite valid. Visual, and general presentation of epicness is another!

[Normie]

Why the fuck would I go into stone guards? Furthermore why should I not assume players in LFR don't have a handful of 502 items giving them a rough itemlevel of atleast 490+? Newsflash you could do over 50k dps in 548 blues. Most LFR players I see are incapable of surpassing this number. And sorry 30% uptime on a boss would give essentially make my 250k look like I was doing 75k dps the entire fight. I shouldn't be anywhere near the tip top.

I don't think you have a realistic view of what constitutes a good effort from a typical LFR player. I don't think you understand or perhaps choose not to accept the various things, none of them unreasonable, that make someone produce 40k instead of 70k while still trying.

[Allawi]

As much as I hate saying it, I was a pretty casual raider (mostly full normal clears/1 or 2 heroics) during t11/13 (no firelands).

I can say this for pretty much everyone in my guild and my friends list, nobody wanted the same equips as all the hardcore raiders. Sure they would've liked to have it, but they would rather raid and progress for their epics, not just get it for barley trying. We all knew if we didn't down the bosses, we didn't deserve the gear and that was okay with us, the feeling of something being "out of reach" from us was the reason we played the game.

Sure we missed out on pretty much all heroic bosses, and it was fine, we didn't want to see the content, it just added to it being out of reach, giving us something to play for, even if we didn't ever get there. But when blizzard decided it was a good idea to start nerfing DS, that's when I just stopped playing. The mentality of "everyone should see the content, it's not fair!" is, in my opinion, wrong. Sure you're paying the same price on the game as me, that doesn't entitle you to anything. We pay the same amount for any video game on the market and we both have to actually play it to beat it and see all the content, but as soon as it comes down to WoW, it just turns into entitlement.

[alturic]

You're making assumptions again. You're assuming that all or even the majority of players that do LFR are bad players and that LFR is the only thing that they have skill for. How can you even back up that statement?

I actually never said players who do LFR are bad players? I'm saying any "real" (see: someone who does it NOT because there's simply nothing else to do on a saturday night) raider feels LFR is so dumbed down it shouldn't even be an option. It's not raiding. It's afking and watching your bag for the loot to appear.

You can't honestly tell me (maybe this is our disconnect) that any "casual" (time, not skill) that can ONLY do LFR due to time (again, not skill) thinks it's "fun" and they would rather do that than something that doesn't allow half the raid to afk away, i.e. dumbed down. Does your million+ players really feel something that takes ZERO effort, "fun"?

[Otimus]

Hopfully it helps but currently the completely worthless 5 mans , scenarios , removal of group quests from leveling, and the LFR experience does not facilitate group play and something seriously needs to change or we will be in this hopless cycle where alot of the players who want to make the jump find Normal modes inaccessable due to the jump required from content that literally teaches you nothing about how to play the game. This is not NORMAL modes fault. This is the intro contents fault. Specifically 5 mans and the way they have deteriorated.

What the game REALLY needs is more instances of outside grouping where having to "gather" people isn't actually required, but done in some sort of automatic way. I can't think of the logistics of how that'd work, or in what context, but the point is, is that grouping should be encouraged at all levels of the game, and facilitated in easier ways. As is, the game pretty much is a single player game with lots of people playing it with you, around you, until you hit a queue button. Which I imagine not many people even bother with until closer to the level cap. That is a definite problem.

Also, it wouldn't hurt if people weren't actively PUNISHED for playing with one another earlier on. That XP Debuff for groups served a purpose a long time ago. Now, it just means everyone plays alone until they're forced not to :x

[Normie]

What exactly do you define "casual" as? To me, it's someone who can't devote a lot of time to a game.

A "casual" player doesn't worry about efficiency or optimization or blah blah blah. It has nothing to do with time.

At times I spend inordinate amounts of time on the game. But, I do what I want to do, when I want to do it. That is why I consider myself "casual."

If I were following schedules and "recipes" for doing things in order to maximize my contribution to a progression group, that would not be casual. If I did it for 10 minutes a week it would still not be casual. Modifying gameplay according to a template is not something casual gamers do.

[anaxie]

Hopefully proving grounds help, but the inherent problem there is that someone has to WANT to do those, rather than it being things that teach the players through the course of their "adventure".

Also Proving grounds will do nothing if it's not a loot slot machine it won't be used by the majority. It will be a niche gameplay element like brawlers guild <which is amazing btw>

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A "casual" player doesn't worry about efficiency or optimization or blah blah blah. It has nothing to do with time.

At times I spend inordinate amounts of time on the game. But, I do what I want to do, when I want to do it. That is why I consider myself "casual."

If I were following schedules and "recipes" for doing things in order to maximize my contribution to a progression group, that would not be casual. If I did it for 10 minutes a week it would still not be casual. Modifying gameplay according to a template is not something casual gamers do.

You seem so angry by the fact I claim to be casual though. I still don't understand.

I don't do PTR testing, I don't do alts. By a top tier heroic raiders standards I am very casual. Despite this I still am able to compete with the very best.

#CasualRetKing

[Normie]

By definition, lore is one of the reasons you chose to play WoW and not TERA or Rift or Guild Wars or whatever.

Actually the reason I chose to play WoW is that WoW was "the" MMORPG. All others are also-rans.

I'm a science fiction fan so I gave EVE a quick try and that was that.

I don't care about the lore. It could be goo balls versus frog people and it would be all the same to me. I despised Warcraft and Starcraft (I just hate RTS, love TBS) so the carryover means nothing to me. I understand it means something to some people but it is meaningless to me.

I play it because it's a fantasy MMO with a very detailed world that's likely to have great longevity. It's the best there is at that and that's really the only thing that attracted me to it.