Why do lesser skilled players feel entitled to see content?

[Windfury]

*whew* I've finally read through all that, can't believe this thread is still going. I was thinking about it though, and I have to admit it got me thinking about entitlement o the other side of the coin.

Why do (some) heroic raiders feel they are entitled to adulation and respect when they treat people in the way we can see throughout this post?

Back in the day I raided in a guild that was solidly US top 20 for a few years, I don't remember us ever hating the people who were below us in progression at all. Myself and a lot of my guild mates went out of our way to help them. In TBC when other guilds got stuck on Vashj and Kael we sent our guildies on alts to help their raids out and teach them our strats. We bought them along to bear runs so they could see how it was done. We ran organised pugs of t5 and t6 content and literally carried people to the Hand of Ad'al title so they could get it before it was gone. We made our community a better place full of better players. In return for that we got the recognition and respect the heroic raiders who complain about LFR seem to so desperately want. We got a great active server and good guild name that helped recruiting a tonne too.

A lot of what I see in this thread is people in heroic guilds who are in the spot where they could do a lot to help themselves get where they want to be refusing to do so, and instead expecting Blizzard to change everyone else's game so they can get what they want with no effort. That's not how it works, and you have a lot of nerve to call other people entitled if you think it should be.

You want better players then help make players better. You want less problems with recruiting create a server environment where people want to come and play. Not everyone will be interested but some people will be. Find them and help them. Stop worrying about people who are NO threat to you. If you want respect then behave in a way that earns it. It's really that simple.

[wordup]

You see wordup? this is the unfortunate players brand new players get to interact with in the game. Where anyone who promotes challenging gameplay is a threat.

The only person limiting you Nameless is yourself. Change your attitude and maybe you would be more appealing to play with.

He's far too busy keeping his super defensive guard up to actually realize that it's easy to break the barrier and become a good player with even a tiny amount of effort and input.

Really, a shame.

[Robert3620]

I do not like LFR either, it's not content I want to be doing. So I choose to not do it. It's as simple as that, if you do not like lfr then do not do it.

LFR is not the problem, the problem for a lot of raiding guilds is they got what they wanted. You got normals tuned in such a way that your lesser guilds got destroyed. If it's like a ladder, then the bottom rung is there, the top one is there and the middle one is gone. They are adding flex to try to address this but what I am confused by is why we need flex. Just tune normal down, it's suppose to be normal. They have gotten way out of wack with the tuning this expansion, that's what is killing raiding.

[wordup]

I'm defending LFR, why the bloody hell are you arguing with me? WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?!

Because you are attacking people who create pugs, and that is a good thing. You are aggressively attacking people who try to bridge LFR to guilds by creating pugs. That is just as foolish as attacking LFR.

[Deleted]

Okay chuckles. Let's say this is true (and I don't think that it is). What do you care? You still have hard content all over the place. The game is busting out the ass with it. THey could mail us purple epics and what would it matter to you? You'd still have hard content available..

Again the dont care "argument". Why does he care about epics? Just let him do the content with no gear drops? And fyi 1% of the whole game being hard doesnt translate into "hard content all over the place".

And again, it doesnt matter for me he gets epics, I never said they should remove them from LFR or anything. Just wanted to showcase how people only care about epics, and nothing else.

[Normie]

I play 4 hours a week currently. This cycle can go on for up to 4 months at a time. During raiding I play roughly 16-20 hours a week IN AND OUTSIDE raids total. Yes I am very very casual.

You are sporting a title that takes 150-200 hours minimum of live play time. You didn't get that playing 4 hours a week in your off time since MoP went live.

Do you just not count the hours you are solving and fishing and doing dailies and finishing metas, because you're not "playing"?

[namelessone]

You see wordup? this is the unfortunate players brand new players get to interact with in the game. Where anyone who promotes challenging gameplay is a threat.

The only person limiting you Nameless is yourself. Change your attitude and maybe you would be more appealing to play with.

I never had a problem finding guilds, you seem to make a mistake thinking that the only person who can ever notice that the system is bad is the one who was personally harmed by it. Empathy, man. You can have challenging play all you like, LFR does not forbid you from it. If it did, there wouldn't be guilds that clear Heroics today.

[Osmeric]

I paid for the first Ninja Gaiden game when on Xbox when i was 12 and couldn't beat it (i fully admit i sucked at it). Think they would had gave me a refund?

Did you buy the next one?

[GrieverXIII]

Because the same group of players now (or at least many of the same members and their spiritual brothers and sisters) were complaining about how easy things were then and about welfare epics and lamenting for tbc. I don't think normal modes fit anybody but I think lfr fits ALOT of people and so will flex. I see normals going the way of the dinosaur however. Flex will just become the new normal.

I'd be cool with it if it means LFR is at the very least is been removed from "normal" character progression path.

Its fine as long as it attracts only its intended playerbase, aka players with little time or interest for any form of organised raiding. Problem with current LFR is that it also attracts people that would be interested in organised raiding wether being pugs or normal mode raid guilds because it offers comparable rewards, the same legendary item (cloak), the same rep, the same currency (valor points) for literally a laughable fraction of the effort required. And we all know that its in human nature to take the path of least resistance.

Solution to this is simply to reduce the amount of rewards from it, not because "i hate dem casuals", why would i? They're player like me looking to enjoy the game i'm passionate about. Simply to keep the game's community alive by keeping the ratio effort -> reward balanced.

Only other change i would make is to also remove the last wing of the raids from it too, not because i hate anyone again, simply because i think seeing the "A" ending should require at least some kind of efforts, like it does in so many other games, and with flex raiding becoming the new "Normal", meaning that it would be entirely accessible, puggable and fitting a large amount of raid sizes and schedules, while still oferring a somewhat noticable challenge (Think normal 10man ToGC in WolTK for example) and giving players some kind of feeling of accomplishement for doing it.

[namelessone]

Because you are attacking people who create pugs, and that is a good thing. You are aggressively attacking people who try to bridge LFR to guilds by creating pugs. That is just as foolish as attacking LFR.

I am attacking people who say that LFR should be removed from the game because it prevents them from creating pugs. Bridging LFR to Normal is a great idea, Flex is amazing idea, but you got to understand that some players are just simply NOT INTERESTED in organized play. In fact, a lot of players. I dare say most players in LFR.

[Glorious Leader]

Again the dont care "argument". Why does he care about epics? Just let him do the content with no gear drops? And fyi 1% of the whole game being hard doesnt translate into "hard content all over the place".

And again, it doesnt matter for me he gets epics, I never said they should remove them from LFR or anything. Just wanted to showcase how people only care about epics, and nothing else.

No why do YOU care what he does? it's obvious that he cares what he does because well why else would he do it? If they offered some form of character progression that was as good as raiding outside of raiding you would have a point but they don't. It's not epics that's why you care about, it's progression. It's getting his character his stronger. It's the carrot at the end of the maze. It's the reason you farmed bale over and over again in d2.

[Thage]

Zergal: Instead of talking about removals, which the blues have been adamant that they will not do, why not follow Lore's train of thought and talk about what could be added to Flex, Normal, and Heroic to further discourage people that don't want to be in LFR from being in LFR?

[GrieverXIII]

Did you buy the next one?

Nah, bought Devil May Cry 3 instead since i got rid of my Xbox for a PS2, wich was harder at the highest difficulty and had a much better storyline and gameplay.

[Thage]

Nah, bought Devil May Cry 3 instead since i got rid of my Xbox for a PS2, wich was harder at the highest difficulty and had a much better storyline and gameplay.

Trickster all day, erryday.

[Glorious Leader]

I'd be cool with it if it means LFR is at the very least is been removed from "normal" character progression path.

Then LFR would miss the point of being lfr. LFR HAS to be part of the normal character progression path because raiding is this huge overwhelming block that sucks up time and resources and money and attention. I'd be fine with ZERO lfr if it mean raiding kicked the bucket and alternate forms existed. If raiding (and especially raids like ToT) has to exist then LFR is necessary.

[wordup]

I never had a problem finding guilds, you seem to make a mistake thinking that the only person who can ever notice that the system is bad is the one who was personally harmed by it. Empathy, man. You can have challenging play all you like, LFR does not forbid you from it. If it did, there wouldn't be guilds that clear Heroics today.

Your points are really convoluted and unfocused.
LFR is good, anyone who's not a complete elitist idiot can agree on that. From day one, hardcore guilds were all about the LFR, they spammed it and people used it. 20 minute queues even at 3am shows that people are doing it; that is good.
What is disagreed on, is you seem to believe that having standards in higher difficulty raids is wrong. That is so, SO much more damaging to the raiding community than LFR. An opinion like that will only degenerate the raiding community further, and whilst it's not as bad as people seem to constantly say it is (reasonably similar number of guilds are clearing this tier as last tier, and even last expansion) thinking that lowering pug standards is the solution is wrong. Guilds will recruit lower level looking players because they can see something special, otherwise, people DO need to show that there's a spark for playing, especially in pugs. That's how WoW always has been, and people thinking that you don't need to have some kind of flair of awesome to convince people to give you a try have had a nice comfy spot since TBC/WotLK as furniture in their guild.

[namelessone]

Problem with current LFR is that it also attracts people that would be interested in organised raiding wether being pugs or normal mode raid guilds because it offers comparable rewards, the same legendary item (cloak), the same rep, the same currency (valor points) for literally a laughable fraction of the effort required. And we all know that its in human nature to take the path of least resistance.

I was under the impression that the biggest reward of Normals/Heroics is community and overcoming challenges. LFR does not offer any of that. All it offers is some measly gear. Are you saying that people only raid for gear?

[GrieverXIII]

Zergal: Instead of talking about removals, which the blues have been adamant that they will not do, why not follow Lore's train of thought and talk about what could be added to Flex, Normal, and Heroic to further discourage people that don't want to be in LFR from being in LFR?

Where did i say i wanted to remove anything? LFR is here to stay, cool. The only thing change i want for it is to not have any chance to trump Flex or Normal mode raiding, and in the current system the only way to do so would be to reduce the quality of the gear it gives. You can't just always stockpile things on top of each other, otherwise you end up with ludicrous characters like we had at the end of WolTK, sometime its better for the overall health of the game to simply cut some of the fat.

[Otimus]

Good point. But you couldn't beat Ninja Gaiden because the game was designed by DEVELOPERS to be hard, not because other people who own Ninja Gaiden thought you don't deserve it.

This is really to the point. I think people handle differently when their personal skill is what determines if they can beat a game, or whatever, rather than what 9/24 other people "allow" them to do. Plus, you could plug at a single player game for years, if you wanted, as it's generally static and unchanging. (and doesn't have a monthly fee.) Way too much of the "good" part of WoW, the parts that "matter", are built around groups, and the "personal" stuff is pretty much unimportant.

[anaxie]

You are sporting a title that takes 150-200 hours minimum of live play time. You didn't get that playing 4 hours a week in your off time since MoP went live.

Do you just not count the hours you are solving and fishing and doing dailies and finishing metas, because you're not "playing"?

Well you know wow is a game. Sometimes I log on for fun you know. Seeker didn't take that long either as long as you don't have ADD.