DKP/Award systems

[lopk]

Do you think Blizzard would be thinking of bringing the LFR style of loot into "main" raid scene? Use /flex as like a test drive?

that sure would shake things up...

No, they aren't planning on it. The only reason why Flex uses the LFR loot style is that they don't yet have in place a working loot system for varying numbers of people (i.e. how many pieces should drop if there's 13 people? what about 21?).

Source: Blue post

[Deleted]

The question was whether I(ME) knew about stat priority, haste caps, and crit plateau was, not everyone else. So i answered you.

The topic is not about some special snowflake exception, the topic is about what generally works, for average guilds. For a lot of guilds loot council doesn't work because officers do not know everything about every class (or because they are arrogant thinking they do, like you are probably).

Honestly you sound like you'd be one starting loot drama cuz you're coming across as caring about YOURSELF and YOUR DPS.

Hahahaha. You don't know me, but its really funny you say this, considering I am always complaining about people meter whoring instead of following the mechanics. If there is anyone in the guild who sacrifices for killing boss instead of ranks I am high in that list. But keep coming up with this type of garbage, maybe it helps you win some kind of argument in some twisted way.

None of your blabla addresses the problem that loot council decisions are completely not transparent and therefore allow stealth discrimination to take place.

[Volbian]

The topic is not about some special snowflake exception, the topic is about what generally works, for average guilds. For a lot of guilds loot council doesn't work because officers do not know everything about every class (or because they are arrogant thinking they do, like you are probably).

Hahahaha. You don't know me, but its really funny you say this, considering I am always complaining about people meter whoring instead of following the mechanics. If there is anyone in the guild who sacrifices for killing boss instead of ranks I am high in that list. But keep coming up with this type of garbage, maybe it helps you win some kind of argument in some twisted way.

None of your blabla addresses the problem that loot council decisions are completely not transparent and therefore allow stealth discrimination to take place.

Since when do you speak for average guilds? And yes i am arrogant, you disappointed that i actually learn how to play my various classes and specs?

If you dont agree with OUR loot system, and it doesnt work for YOU, so be it. I'm not here to argue whats better. I stated what we use and that it works for US.
But you start TRYING to make opinions into facts, thats the REAL garbage of this conversation.

[Deleted]

Since when do you speak for average guilds? And yes i am arrogant, you disappointed that i actually learn how to play my various classes and specs?

If you dont agree with OUR loot system, and it doesnt work for YOU, so be it. I'm not here to argue whats better. I stated what we use and that it works for US.
But you start TRYING to make opinions into facts, thats the REAL garbage of this conversation.

The only thing which matters is that loot council works for a tiny minority in the game. A minority you are part of. OP isn't part of this minority. The garbage of the conversation is that you are unable to grasp it, and want to underline your special snowflake mentality in the past 3 posts now. Lets make it clear once and for all: you don't matter. You are irrelevant, and so is loot council, for the vast majority of the WoW playerbase. It doesn't properly work for almost any guild.

[Volbian]

The only thing which matters is that loot council works for a tiny minority in the game. A minority you are part of. OP isn't part of this minority. The garbage of the conversation is that you are unable to grasp it, and want to underline your special snowflake mentality in the past 3 posts now. Lets make it clear once and for all: you don't matter. You are irrelevant, and so is loot council, for the vast majority of the WoW playerbase. It doesn't properly work for almost any guild.

And yet another opinion TRYING to pass as fact. LOL. You dont live up your Quote, do you? Give up trying to troll, take that shit to /2 on your realm, bro.

[glo]

Zero sum DKP with 100% of points going to loot wins was the most successful for my previous guild of a few years. No way to stockpile, evenly distributes loot and isn't difficult to manage.

[Deleted]

And yet another opinion TRYING to pass as fact. LOL. You dont live up your Quote, do you? Give up trying to troll, take that shit to /2 on your realm, bro.

It is an opinion formed as a logical conclusion after these premises:

1) Most PuGs use Master Loot with Main Spec before Off Spec or simply Need before Greed.
2) Loot Council, and perhaps any loot system, being overkill for casual 10m (the most popular raiding tier and form of raiding).
3) Now we have arrived at the top100 guilds only. In 25m, a system which keeps track of the checks and balances (such as EPGP) works much better because it is nearly humanly impossible to do this correct. Human being, such as yourself, however believe firmly they're doing it all right. Which is precisely the fallacy of Loot Council.
4) If computers are responsible for the outcome and the logic behind their decision can be tracked back and understood, human beings are more willingly to accept the outcome. This coincides with the transparency argument I posted about 3 posts ago, one you failed to address because all you can do is express your own mantra.

Then we have a topic here about it from and some special snowflake from some top500 guild comes rant "it works for me guise" well good for you, you are an exception to the rule now go feel special. For the rest of the world you're irrelevant though.

By the way, from the language you express here (e.g. calling others your "bro" and "cuz" and so on) I can only conclude you're immature which makes me glad I'm not under your Loot Council wing. It underlines the point only further which is rather ironic.

[Volbian]

It is an opinion formed as a logical conclusion after these premises:

1) Most PuGs use Master Loot with Main Spec before Off Spec or simply Need before Greed.
2) Loot Council, and perhaps any loot system, being overkill for casual 10m (the most popular raiding tier and form of raiding).
3) Now we have arrived at the top100 guilds only. In 25m, a system which keeps track of the checks and balances (such as EPGP) works much better because it is nearly humanly impossible to do this correct. Human being, such as yourself, however believe firmly they're doing it all right. Which is precisely the fallacy of Loot Council.
4) If computers are responsible for the outcome and the logic behind their decision can be tracked back and understood, human beings are more willingly to accept the outcome. This coincides with the transparency argument I posted about 3 posts ago, one you failed to address because all you can do is express your own mantra.

Then we have a topic here about it from and some special snowflake from some top500 guild comes rant "it works for me guise" well good for you, you are an exception to the rule now go feel special. For the rest of the world you're irrelevant though.

By the way, from the language you express here (e.g. calling others your "bro" and "cuz" and so on) I can only conclude you're immature which makes me glad I'm not under your Loot Council wing. It underlines the point only further which is rather ironic.

Wow, you're so lost in your own bullshit, apparently you cant read or even remember my original post. I said i use Loot Council in my 10M.

And you just said in #2, used in 10M. DERPY DERP DERP!!! (Overkill, being YOUR OPINION and not a fact, once again)

Now if you go back to page 2, PLEASE REREAD what i wrote. Yeah, i might be immature,or maybe lazy to type, or whatever. BUT at least i know how to read. Instead you're arguing how Loot Council is garbage, but good enough for 10M(IN THIS POST), which i said i was in 10M raiding guild from the very beginning.

I dont have to call you names, conclude the type of person you are, and everything else you have done to make yourself feel good.
You've shown exactly the type of person you are. Good Day, Sir/Madam! Reading is Fundamental!!!

Seriously though, you sound very sexually frustrated, you need to find you a piece and relieve some tension.

[Wycked]

If your a bad, use dkp/epgp so you can be like "waaa i was here i deserve gear". If your good, use loot council so you don't have to worry about the downy's taking stuff they can't use properly.

[Deleted]

Wow, you're so lost in your own bullshit, apparently you cant read or even remember my original post. I said i use Loot Council in my 10M.

And you just said in #2, used in 10M. DERPY DERP DERP!!! (Overkill, being YOUR OPINION and not a fact, once again)

I said it is overkill in casual 10m and hard to track in 25m. Casual 10m is a very big scene. Hardcore 10m is smaller compared, and generally not taken serious compared to 25m hardcore. Now, in 10m it is even easy for the members to keep track of things and put loot responsibility in their hands. In other words, if UVLS drops the players should be mature and friendly enough to give it either to the spriest or the lock. If they are not able to achieve that level, loot council could be a viable alternative.

By the way, many loot council systems still use an underlying system like EPGP. Either they only invoke loot council in special situations, or use the EPGP as a modifier to their decisions. Calling such a system pure loot council however, is deceptive.

I dont have to call you names, conclude the type of person you are, and everything else you have done to make yourself feel good.
You've shown exactly the type of person you are. Good Day, Sir/Madam! Reading is Fundamental!!!

Seriously though, you sound very sexually frustrated, you need to find you a piece and relieve some tension.

Seems like you had to resort to flamebaits and strawmans. Again, the manner you reply only underlines my happiness I am not under your loot council government. Which goes directly against what I wrote above: If they are not able to achieve that level, loot council could be a viable alternative. If you cannot even keep your manners in a disagreement with a random stranger on a forum then how can you keep a level of maturity in a loot council? I don't see why I'd trust you to remain neutral given the character you've shown here.


- - - Updated - - -

If your a bad, use dkp/epgp so you can be like "waaa i was here i deserve gear". If your good, use loot council so you don't have to worry about the downy's taking stuff they can't use properly.

Members can still argue and convince each other, and look at each other's BiS lists in DKP/EPGP. We have it happen with important items however it happens in private, not in public in front of the 25 or so players.

Officer team can still bench the "downy's" and only take them when there are not 10 or 25 goodies on. If said "downy" is then in, and he pulled his weight, he deserves loot. If you don't have faith in said person then your officer team should simply replace them. If he was shit on the specific encounter you took him, and got boosted, you can incur EP/DKP penalty. Long story short, EP/DKP has mechanisms to work around what you call "downy's".

[Destinas]

Pros of an award system: those who have done what they should do are awarded loot. The rewards are given to the people who earn them...mostly. This creates more fo an elite team, and sometimes drives more people to perform better.

Cons: Factors like processor, internet, location, etc can affect performance. People who have better internet and have played longer will usually be better at the game, and will not do things like stand in stuff as much/at all. The same people tend to be rewarded over and over. People who actually need upgrades to be more helpful to everyone else may not get an upgrade due to something like standing in fire...when they lagged for a bit due to the quality of internet they have.

(Before anyone says "get better internet" to that last part, keep in mind it's not that simple for some people. Not everyone can afford better internet, and some rural areas only offer slower internet.)

I am not in favor of award systems like DKP. I like seeing people who win rolls who need the upgrades. I've just had more pleasant experiences without people constantly judging one another's performance or specifically watching for someone to screw up. Sometimes they work, but in my experience they create a much worse environment.

[Aerorogue]

I've been in guilds that used DKP, loot council, and straight rolls.

Overall I would say loot council is the fairest, as long as you have a fair council, loot is distributed to the person who needs it the most. (I only really had one bad experience where a person who didn't deserve the loot was awarded it, and that was the Guild Leader, who showed up an hour late, was towards the top of being the most geared people in the guild was given a good trinket instead of one of the 3 lower geared players still using blue trinkets.)

DKP is fine later throughout the raid cycle. Usually the good raiders will blow all their dkp on the really good items the first time they drop, and then you can easily get them for cheaper a couple weeks later.

Straight rolls are also fine, if the people in your group can be trusted.