Fel Flame vs Immolate

[krykiett]

I haven't found a good thread or explanation about which might be better to keep the dot up in Destro.


Anyone care to throw me a bone here and give me some math behind which is better for extending said dot?

Thanks

[Alarinth]

Fel Flaming means you use GCDs that could be better spent otherwise.

[Biomega]

Basically you are using Fel Flame if:

- you are extending multiple Immolates with it through Havoc

- you are moving and don't have/don't want to use KJC

- you get an UVLS proc and FF will land before the proc expires

[forsworn]

Your better off casting an immolate. You only cast FF when your moving and can't use/ didn't take KJC. FF barely extends Immolate and the way pandemic works makes it even better to cast an immolate to refresh

[dawawe]

Basically you are using Fel Flame if:

- you are extending multiple Immolates with it through Havoc

- you are moving and don't have/don't want to use KJC

- you get an UVLS proc and FF will land before the proc expires

Why would havoc have any bearing on using FF? He could just immolate and achieve a better effect than the FF. At this point there is no reason to use FF unless you dont have KJC.

[shinewaylee]

I just know it's a big nerf for pvp

[Brusalk]

Why would havoc have any bearing on using FF? He could just immolate and achieve a better effect than the FF. At this point there is no reason to use FF unless you dont have KJC.

For situations where damage on only one target is important, but a second target is alive and damage there doesn't matter.

Havoc -> Immolate -> Non-havoc-stack-consumers -> Fel Flame -> More non-stack-consumers -> Fel Flame lets you have Immolate up on 2 targets nearly 100% of the time which gives much more ember generation than the alternatives.

[dawawe]

For situations where damage on only one target is important, but a second target is alive and damage there doesn't matter.

Havoc -> Immolate -> Non-havoc-stack-consumers -> Fel Flame -> More non-stack-consumers -> Fel Flame lets you have Immolate up on 2 targets nearly 100% of the time which gives much more ember generation than the alternatives.

From my understanding the only non-havoc consuming ability we have that does damage is rain of fire. So I see you casting immolate>rain>standing for ~6 or wanding>Felflame>Rain>standing

or attacking the target u have havoc on in which case you pretty much waste it and 2 globals to cast FF to extend the dot by 12 seconds when u can use 1 global to reapply the 15+ immolate with tab. The only thing i use havoc on is chaosbolts or shadowburns i may be doing it wrong but i ony go destro for maybe 3 fights and rbgs

[Brusalk]

From my understanding the only non-havoc consuming ability we have that does damage is rain of fire. So I see you casting immolate>rain>standing for ~6 or wanding>Felflame>Rain>standing

or attacking the target u have havoc on in which case you pretty much waste it and 2 globals to cast FF to extend the dot by 12 seconds when u can use 1 global to reapply the 15+ immolate with tab. The only thing i use havoc on is chaosbolts or shadowburns i may be doing it wrong but i ony go destro for maybe 3 fights and rbgs

Consuming the first stack of Havoc with Immolate means Chaos Bolt doesn't consume any stacks.

[dawawe]

Consuming the first stack of Havoc with Immolate means Chaos Bolt doesn't consume any stacks.

yes i know that... i said nothing about using the 1st stack for immolate. i use all 3 stacks for a chaosbolt. and simply cast immolate on the 2nd target if its going to live long enough... you were the one who brought havoc into the discussion anyways i still see using FF with it as a waste since they fixed the bug of havoc felflames causing immolate to tick twice everytime(which wasnt a well know bug if u didnt look around)

[Biomega]

The fight where this is used primarily is Megaera (and I suppose Animus), i.e. a fight where only your primary target matters and damage on the second one is irrelevant. You do not use Havoc for anything else there, or only rarely. Using Havoc + FF allows you to squeeze extra DPS out of Havoc.

If you can use Havoc to your advantage otherwise, of course that takes precedence. You could cleave CBs and SBs onto the second head in the Megaera fight to be sure, but all that does is pad the meters. If that is your goal, by all means...

[forsworn]

You need to use Havoc to cleave your SB on the adds in the megara fight. Using it on a head is a huge waste.

[dawawe]

To sum up this thread for the OP no real reason to use FF to extent immolates. everyone has different uses for havocs (even tho u didnt ask) ranging from keeping immolate up on 2 targets, being a scumbag dps padding meters, and killing adds.

[Brusalk]

yes i know that... i said nothing about using the 1st stack for immolate. i use all 3 stacks for a chaosbolt. and simply cast immolate on the 2nd target if its going to live long enough... you were the one who brought havoc into the discussion anyways i still see using FF with it as a waste since they fixed the bug of havoc felflames causing immolate to tick twice everytime(which wasnt a well know bug if u didnt look around)

You didn't directly talk about havoc, but you did indeed say this:

Why would havoc have any bearing on using FF? He could just immolate and achieve a better effect than the FF. At this point there is no reason to use FF unless you dont have KJC.

There is a reason to use FF. With Havoc. Hence why I explained it.


Using all 3 stacks for Chaos Bolt is optimal if the damage on the secondary target is as important as the primary target. In some cases it's not, (Megaera) so using Immo + 2 FFs is the best use of Havoc charges. Using Chaos Bolt for Havoc charges on a fight like Megaera where the damage you do only matters on one target is just meter padding.

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You need to use Havoc to cleave your SB on the adds in the megara fight. Using it on a head is a huge waste.

Depends on how long it takes you to kill heads. Our early kills were long enough that Havoc had more than enough time to come back up before I'd need to 3x shadowburn onto adds.

[Biomega]

If you can use Havoc to that end, then you should. But as Brusalk says, it depends on the DPS. We usually kill heads just as adds start to spawn, so there's no real opportunity to Havoc them, not to mention that they die incredibly quickly so even if I could cleave a SB, it would likely be only one before the add dies. This is 10m of course, it might be different in 25m.

[dawawe]

There is a reason to use FF. With Havoc. Hence why I explained it.

Using all 3 stacks for Chaos Bolt is optimal if the damage on the secondary target is as important as the primary target. In some cases it's not, (Megaera) so using Immo + 2 FFs is the best use of Havoc charges. Using Chaos Bolt for Havoc charges on a fight like Megaera where the damage you do only matters on one target is just meter padding.

and what is the benefit of using havoc + immolate + felflame(3 GCDs) for a 12 seconds increase while making sure you dont use a havoc consuming spells over just tabbing to that target and refreshing immolate in 1 GCD. Wouldn't the 3 incinerates generate the same embers while doing more damage on the target it matters on? Im not seeing were the benefit is to hold off charges for Felflames is.

also, why is the thread now a discussion on havoc when it wasnt even in the OPs question?

[Deleted]

Are you guys having one of those " who have the bigger balls? " discussions? Where neither side wants to admit the other is right ?

Keep going guys . /popcorn

Op was awnsered already

[Chrispotter]

You need to use Havoc to cleave your SB on the adds in the megara fight. Using it on a head is a huge waste.

Most guilds with good dps kill the heads right as the adds spawn. = there is nothing to Sburn cleave onto.

[Brusalk]

Are you guys having one of those " who have the bigger balls? " discussions? Where neither side wants to admit the other is right ?

Keep going guys . /popcorn

Op was awnsered already

I'm not incorrect and if I must defend my point to prove it's validity, then I must. It's hardly about not wanting to admit being incorrect.

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and what is the benefit of using havoc + immolate + felflame(3 GCDs) for a 12 seconds increase while making sure you dont use a havoc consuming spells over just tabbing to that target and refreshing immolate in 1 GCD. Wouldn't the 3 incinerates generate the same embers while doing more damage on the target it matters on? Im not seeing were the benefit is to hold off charges for Felflames is.

also, why is the thread now a discussion on havoc when it wasnt even in the OPs question?

Threads most often will go off-topic from the original intent of the thread. That's also not a bad thing as it tends to lead to interesting discussions on topics that would otherwise never see the light of day.


I've gone over this previously in the Destro guide thread before when the discussion came up around the best use of Havoc on Megaera. I'll repeat it's main argument here:

When damage only matters to one head it becomes a matter of Ember Generation and Damage vs alternatives.

The 3 main methods you can go with are:

1) Chaos Bolt
2) Incinerate/Conflag
3) Immolate/Fel Flame


1) Casting a Chaos Bolt gives you no additional damage on the primary target, and is thus pointless. You'd have spent the ember on that boss anyway, and potentially with more procs than when trying to line it up with Havoc.

For 2 vs 3 I'm going to quote myself from the Destro guide:

People will always complain that you're meter padding on that fight. (Also, if you use MF you can hit Venom+Arcane head) There's no reason to nerf your own single target damage in order to appease those that don't understand why you're doing it.

I'm going to do some numbers of my own because I don't entirely get where your numbers are coming from:


Situation:

• What 3 spells give the most Embers per Cast (EpC)?
• Player has Critical Strike Chance of C.

Possibilities:

• Immolate
• Incinerate/Conflag/Fel Flame
• CoE

Immolate
Expected Ember Gain for 1 cast of t ticks:

t=5: 5*C

t=6: 6*C

t=7: 7*C

Incinerate/Conflag/Fel Flame
Expected Ember Gain for 1 cast:

t=1: 1+C

In the above graph you can see that what's best depends on 2 things. First is how many ticks of Immolate there is (how much haste you have), and how much crit you have. That said, here's the results:

• Under 15% crit Incinerate is always best
• Immolate t=5 is better than Incinerate at 25% crit chance
• Immolate t=6 is better than Incinerate at ~20% crit chance
• Immolate t=7 is better than Incinerate at ~15% crit chance

In general, gaining an extra tick of Immolate reduces the amount of crit you need for an Immolate to be better than an Incinerate by 5%.

My Conclusion: Immolate followed by 2 Fel Flames (pushing the Immolate up to full pandemic duration) is the best option for EpC

The one thing this post doesn't take into account is the damage difference between 1 Incinerate and 1 Immolate + 2 Fel Flames, however it'd most likely be at most at the cost of about 1 Incinerates worth of damage. This is easily outdamaged by the extra Embers gained by Immo + 2 Fel Flames.

[forsworn]

Most guilds with good dps kill the heads right as the adds spawn. = there is nothing to Sburn cleave onto.

Then Cleave add-to-add or add-to-boss. Just hit 2 things.
@Brusalk - Makes sence for the Immo/FF debate. When you cleave 3 SB's you effectivly get 3 Embers + if the add dies in that time (it better lol) you get 3 more embers.