1. #1

    Inspiring a Guild to want to progress?

    So, the story goes like this:

    I'm on a very small server in the only 25 man guild left there whose leadership's 100% focus is heroic mode raiding. Now, with the small empty server, our recruitment pool is very limited so it's nearly impossible to bring anyone in when we aren't even 6/13 H yet. The main problem is there are too many people focused on other things in the game like Pet Battling, dailies, and the story of the game and all that. I have nothing wrong with players who want to play that way; that's why the player base is so diverse and that's good. But the problem is that nearly everyone on the raid team that signed up to progress just doesn't seem like they really have the drive to or even want to kill the hard bosses on heroic.

    I was previously a raider turned officer in the guild and when I tried to help and improve players by showing them World of Logs parses and doing various Armory audits, no one even seemed to care that they weren't playing optimally despite numerous attempts to show them some new approaches to their class. So I left the guild and joined a hardcore raid group and went 16/16H in Tier 14 before ToT was released and ended up going 8/13H in heroic ToT before I just couldn't take the guild's late raid times on top of working full time as well. So I'm back in my old guild after convincing them I wanted to help out. Now that I'm back I'm starting to remember why I left. It seems like no one cares that there is an optimal way to raid or play their classes. It's a lot of the "I play how I want" mindset, which is perfectly fine by me; but not perfectly fine for a guild that wants to focus on clearing heroic content. I've seen how a top tier guild plays and how the players in the guilds all treat going into encounters and how they min/max their characters to their best ability, but it just doesn't seem like this guild wants to do that. There are a small number of people within the guild that are very good players and we could form a decent 10 man group with them, but they don't want to do 10 man ever. It's either 25 man or they quit kind of mentality. Server transfers are a no-go as well since they just don't think they could get people to follow and that they would lose more than they would gain.

    So I know I really like the people in my guild, but I also love heroic raiding and progressing on the hardest bosses that Blizzard releases for us. Should we just sit down one day and decide what kind of raiding guild we want to be? Should I force people to min/max and learn to review their performances by comparing different World of Logs parses with their own? How do you convince a group of people that say they want to heroic raid to actually put forth the effort? It just feels like these guys are a very casual guild that manages to kill a couple of heroic bosses (the easy ones, of course) every now and then. Doing things outside the raid scene within the game is fine and should be done to prevent burnout, but when it comes to raid encounters they'd rather be talking about pet collecting or some kind of transmog gear they want to do runs for. Some of them even talk about pets and mounts while we're discussing different approaches to encounter strategies. Would you recommend I keep trying with this group or move on and leave the guild (again)?

    TL;DR: Raid group claims to want to heroic raid and after I've experienced hardcore raiding first-hand this expansion they just don't even remotely have the drive to raid or even to play their classes optimally. How do you convince that kind of group to get into the 'real' heroic raiding mindset?

  2. #2
    Warchief Arcanimus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Where everything is bitter. Especially me.
    Talk your guild into moving to a higher pop server and open recruitment, or move along and find a guild whose philosophies you agree with.
    Last edited by Arcanimus; 2013-07-07 at 09:12 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by GennGreymane View Post
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  3. #3
    You can't convince them, to be honest. If they don't care about playing perfectly they aren't going to progress and they're going to stay with the progression they're at or progress very slowly. I mean, you can bang your face into a boss for weeks and it'll die eventually cause your gear will keep improving, even if your skill doesn't. People that don't want to take the game seriously won't though, no matter what you do or say. You could tell them how to increase their DPS by 10k over and over, but they won't listen if they don't find it as fun. People like that play for fun, and they have fun just raiding the same content week after week, and there's nothing wrong with that, but if you don't enjoy doing it then it's probably time to jump ship and either swap to a 10man guild on your server (you said there were no other 25s) or transfer to a higher pop realm. If you're gonna transfer though, apply to guilds first, so you have somewhere to go.

  4. #4
    Herald of the Titans peaky blinder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    stop quoting me on football, i never read your answers. noobs.
    unfortunately, you cant force players to play the way you would like to.
    the only way youre going to achieve that, is if you move realms to a guild who is willing to put the time & effort into progressing the way you would obviously like your current guild to. i wish you all the best.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanimus View Post
    Talk your guild into moving to a higher pop server and open recruitment, or move along and find a guild whose philosophies you agree with.
    That is something I bring up to the officers quite a bit and they really don't like that I'm the one bringing it up after I left them already once before. They think the new Virtual Servers in 5.4 will help, but since we're on an RP-PvP server I don't even think we'll get merged with a lot of people..

  6. #6
    If you aren't in a guild with people of a like mind and similar skills for raiding then you are in the wrong place. It's as simple as that.

    I could write insightful paragraphs but at the end of the day you will not convince your current guildies to step up so accept them as they are or leave to a guild with progression and skill ambitions closer to your own.

  7. #7
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Trinity, FL
    The Devil's Advocate in me wants to say that if you like the guild and people you run with, can't be you content with downing X many heroic bosses (where X is less than 13) and knowing that puts you far above and beyond the majority of players in the game? If clearing all the heroic bosses is your major goal in the game, then keep in mind you left for a reason, and as much as you like the guild you're in if you aren't getting enough satisfaction out of your game time, it's not the guild for you.

    I was in a similar situation during most of Cata, but not at the same level. I was in a guild that was only able to really progress in T12 after it was nerfed, and decided to look elsewhere for a guild skilled enough to actually clear the content without waiting for it to be nerfed to hell (and then still have problems). Did some guild hopping for Firelands and Dragon Soul and if I had stayed in the guild I was in at the start of DS (which was very good, seeing as we killed Heroic Morchok the second week DS was out) I would have more than likely cleared that on heroic and been deep into heroic modes in Mists, however I found I enjoyed playing with my close friends instead, progress be damned and I've had to come to terms that clearing normal modes, to say nothing of heroic, is probably a pipe dream.

    So ask yourself this: Let's say your current guild is 5/13H (you don't mention their progression just "not even 6/13H yet"). That's still worlds better than the majority of raiding guilds in the game, and only lower than the really hardcore raid guilds. Does that knowledge satisfy you enough if you're playing with people you like to play the game with, or is the Pokemon syndrome (i.e. "I want to be the very best") too great a vice? That should be your answer.
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  8. #8
    Just remember that you don't need to raid silly hours to clear a tier in a timely manner. It may be that the guild you are in now are not be right guild for you, as was the other guild that raided too much. Find a guild that had the same raiding ethos as you and also raids the hours that you want to raid.

    I have been there before in a guild that does not raid to the standard that I want and as much fun as it was raiding with people that I know it didn't make up for the fact that I wanted more out of the time I spent raiding.

  9. #9
    To be honest, I think you'd be better off simply finding yourself a new guild that better fits what you're after.

  10. #10
    Transfer to another server with a guild that fits your schedule

    There is a time and place to help players...but don't teach people if they arent willing to learn on there own
    You shouldn't have to go to them to teach them there own class

    If they want to be remotely optimal they'll do it on there own..

    When i wanted to learn I looked over various sites and started testing it in dungeons or dummies
    And if i didn't understand certain things i'd contact another more experienced players to assist me if they had the time
    Last edited by TheNationGamer; 2013-07-07 at 02:43 PM.

  11. #11
    If they don't want to do the same stuff as you maybe it's not them that is wrong but you--the obviously don't want to push to be a top tier guild, you want to be a top tier player. Sounds to me you have tried pushing for something that you and maybe a small group of other people wants in your guild. If I were you, I would either find a new guild or realm transfer to a higher pop realm and just join a new guild there that does what you want to do.

  12. #12
    My first reaction was like many of these above. If they don't want to put in the effort then there isn't much you can do to change that, but you know your people better than we do. If there was hope you would be the one to know how to best influence each one. My next reaction was: Raid with them on an alt, and take another character to a more HC guild, but as you said your server is pretty limited (not to mention it's not really a good option.)

    So, instead of repeating others have said I will say this: The art of influencing people is about convincing them that what you want is also what they want. Mind, I did not say that what you want is what they need; people don't exactly want what they need. You have convince them that they want to put in the effort. Here's some tips:

    1. Start small. Work individually with the candidates that are most likely to be influenced first. It will be easier to convince the more stubborn ones if you have some history and are making progress. You will probably also start to see results from just two people performing better.

    2. Pick the right goal. Your goal is to clear heroic, but they have said they want the same. So if that was a motivator for them, then they would've already put in the effort for it. Instead find something else that is also attained during raids that they would feel more motivated to accomplish... such as beating you on a meter. This is where you knowing the people better will have to come into play, because I can't tell you what they want since I don't know them. Offer rewards outside of raiding if you have to. Once you find the right motivator, a person will do anything you want.

    3. Work with them. Don't just say "You need to research your class", offer suggestions for improvement. Research the class on your own so that you know something about what they need to change to get better. Take them into other raids and practice (might have to have a carrot for this one too). Some people are hesitant to get better because the task seems too daunting. If you are knowledgeable you can help break some of the task up for them and offer a different perspective.

    4. Persevere. Changes don't happen in a month. Though you could see improvements in as little time as that; you will most likely have to stick it out for a long time to see serious effort. Take heart in small improvements, because those are the grains of sand that create the beach (the beach being a great improvement.) Try not to think about it too much and just keep going, sometimes the biggest challenge is being able to look back and remember where you were and realizing how far you've come.

    TL;DR. If your not willing to put in serious effort on their behalf then there isn't much hope, but you can influence anyone to become better than they are if you can convince them it is what they want and offer solutions for improvement.

    Edit: Background - I am a teacher and have been leading raids in WoW since UBRS.
    Last edited by Jaojin; 2013-07-07 at 03:19 PM.
    "And what's the real lesson? Don't leave food in the fridge."
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  13. #13
    Herald of the Titans
    Join Date
    May 2013
    The Frozen Wasteland
    It seems like no one cares that there is an optimal way to raid or play their classes.
    Honestly, a lot of people, the vast majority actually, do not find being optimal fun. Either the optimal way involves some play style that a player doesn't like, or the player just doesn't find "optimal" something desirable in a game. You seem to have a raid where a sizable portion of the raiders want to do it "their" way.

    It's impressive that you are 5/13H in a 25 man guild with members who have this mindset. Personally I don't think it's a bad thing. Your "non-optimal" members are apparently pretty good at what they do anyway.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludacritts View Post
    That is something I bring up to the officers quite a bit and they really don't like that I'm the one bringing it up after I left them already once before. They think the new Virtual Servers in 5.4 will help, but since we're on an RP-PvP server I don't even think we'll get merged with a lot of people..
    Dont get me wrong but your goals are clearly different then goals of the guild your in atm - u said yourself that only reason u came back there is cause u cant raid with other guild u left your old guild for - how can they treat u seriusly if u shown them disloyality once and come back crawling to them at some point ? they have 0 confidence that if your work times shiftss again u wont run away instantly from them.

    About optimalization - ofc its needed but i have a strenge feeling after how u written that you are then only 25 man guild on the server - people in raid team are more happy about the fact that they raid in 25 man format then on fact that they are progressing into hc with really really serius mindset.
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2013-07-08 at 11:12 AM.

  15. #15
    I'm the GM of a 25-man guild and we were in a similar position. Being on a dead realm we've had an extremely limited recruitment pool and our progress has stalled. After a lot of debating, we've decided to move to a very high pop realm - taking the risk of losing a few raiders (we've only lost three, in the end) and trying to improve our roster. Since then, we've gotten up to 10/13 in 25-man HC (we moved with 2/13) and have a very active roster with around 30-35 players in the raid at a given time. We moved less than 2 months ago.

    Bottom line is, server transfer is worth the risk if your guild leadership feels up for it. Even if you end up with a 10-man, you'll be on a better realm with a lot more opportunities. Move and don't look back imo.

    Also, you can't force anyone to do this or that. I've been there, some people just don't have the same drive for progression, or expect to be carried. What the leadership of any guild has to do is decide what they want from the game. Do you want progression, or casual raiding with friends? You can compromise to have both, but if people underperform, they still need to be replaced if the ultimate goal is to progress. Before trying to make changes, that decision has to be made, and then you can proceed with actions.
    Last edited by Ablissa; 2013-07-08 at 03:51 PM.

  16. #16
    You've gotta think about what your goals are, if it's to get heroic clears while present content then I don't think virtual realms will change that for this team.

    But if it's just to continue at a similar level to what you see now, but with further recruitment options and fewer nights called due to lack of people, then yeah hold out until 5.4 like they say.

  17. #17

  18. #18
    Others already said it, but a server transfer to a high pop realm for yourself would be your best bet by far.

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