I always wanted only to see the content

[DrSteveBrule]

I will, but LFR people won't, and the big thing the OP and others are saying is "Hey I get to see the content" well............no you really don't.

LFR people can't look up youtube vids?

I've seen the fight and frankly it looks boring as shit. The room looks bland, the mechanics look bland, I think most Heroic raiders agreed it was a lack luster addition. Far from what an extra phase on Ragnaros in Firelands was.

BUT HEY! I'M GLAD LFR IS HERE TO SUPPORT THIS LEVEL OF DESIGN RIGHT? RIGHT?

[Seefer]

LFR people can't look up youtube vids?

I've seen the fight and frankly it looks boring as shit. The room looks bland, the mechanics look bland, I think most Heroic raiders agreed it was a lack luster addition. Far from what an extra phase on Ragnaros in Firelands was.

BUT HEY! I'M GLAD LFR IS HERE TO SUPPORT THIS LEVEL OF DESIGN RIGHT? RIGHT?

LFR people could go watch a video of the raid, they keep saying IN THIS VERY THREAD that a video is not experiencing the content!

[Maniac2]

Its not about seeing the content, its about experiencing the content. If you cant tell the difference then you can't be helped.

And as far as the OP is concerned, Raid communities like to blame 'seeing the content easy' is why people are not in Raid Guilds, which OP would be a representative of the 'path of least resistance' types, I don't for the foggiest understand why Raid Guilds think they want these guys. They disapear as soon as the final boss goes down and they are not there to experience the content in a Guild, the Guild is an unwanted horse they have to ride to experience the content. It's like paying for a mercenary force to back up your military, the ideal sounds great until a higher bidder comes along and you find out they have no loyalty to your military what so ever.

OP here. Actually, I was very loyal to all my guilds I have been in. Only 3 guilds from TBC to Cata, 2 of them disbanded, so not my fault, never left them when killed last boss. 3rd one is the one I am in now as social member.

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Because thats good game design... Making users want to play the game LESS. God what is wrong with people today...

Loading screen tips in wow says: "Bring your friends to Azeroth, but don't forget to go outside Azeroth with them as well."
In TBC I neglected 2nd part of the tip, but not anymore.

Working just as intended - I pay sub, playing less while enjoying it, making less network traffic, spending less electricity, more time outside Azeroth with family/friends etc.. Sounds like win-win scenario.

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I will never get the logic "I raided LFR, saw the content, no point in doing actual raids". Not to mention the satisfaction you get when you down heroic encounters. It's the best feeling this game offers IMO. It simply doesn't exist in LFR and normal modes.
.

Sure you cant see that logic, you cant walk in my shoes.
Satisfaction - been there, done that. Gruul, Lady vashj, Kael, Ilidan, LK etc. Wiped a lot and killed alot. Was fun back then, but now is better. Maybe Im just too old for gaming, but whatever, its better now with LFR.

[Airwaves]

I feel the same. I raided for over 7 years and I could never see myself going back to set raid times. Not having to commit 3/5 nights a week to see the content is awesome. I can see content on my terms not on a guilds set terms. Been free to do what ever I want any night of the week is to good to give up and go back to set times.

Raiders have to come to terms that they are a very very small percentage. And with FLEXI raids inc more raiders like I was will quit raiding to just do lfr and FLEXI. Within 2 expansions MAX, I am even going to say by the end of next expansion heroic raids will not even exist any more because so little people will do them that it will not even justify the time it takes to balance it.

[Deleted]

This is exactly why I love LFR. Freedom of decision. I'm a husband, a dad, a guy with a job.

I would never have had the chance to experience the story of Deathwings demise other than the tiny bit in the Leveling zones. Now I can say to myself "I finished cata". That does not mean that I have reached everything in cata gameplaywise, but I have experienced the story, the only thing that I loved blizzard games for since Warcraft: Orcs & Humans ^^ And that's enough for me.

I would never tell anyone that I'm a raider and raiders have my respect for commitment and effort, so they don't need to feel their "superiority" *cough* threatened by me. Everyone pays monthly fee, so everyone should play the way they like. LFR supports that. Fair enough for players like me.

[DrSteveBrule]

This is exactly why I love LFR. Freedom of decision. I'm a husband, a dad, a guy with a job.

I would never have had the chance to experience the story of Deathwings demise other than the tiny bit in the Leveling zones. Now I can say to myself "I finished cata". That does not mean that I have reached everything in cata gameplaywise, but I have experienced the story, the only thing that I loved blizzard games for since Warcraft: Orcs & Humans ^^ And that's enough for me.

I would never tell anyone that I'm a raider and raiders have my respect for commitment and effort, so they don't need to feel their "superiority" *cough* threatened by me. Everyone pays monthly fee, so everyone should play the way they like. LFR supports that. Fair enough for players like me.

Exhibit A.

The casual player feels he's "finished" the expansion in LFR.

"HRMMM GUIZ I DONTZ KNOWZ WHYZ POOPLS ARE LEAVING TEH GAMEZ WHEN LFRZ HALPS ALL PLYRZ RAID GOODER!"
-Ghostcrawler

[Deleted]

Ok then change it to "I finished the story of cata" ;-)

[DeadmanWalking]

Exhibit A.

The casual player feels he's "finished" the expansion in LFR.

"HRMMM GUIZ I DONTZ KNOWZ WHYZ POOPLS ARE LEAVING TEH GAMEZ WHEN LFRZ HALPS ALL PLYRZ RAID GOODER!"
-Ghostcrawler

Why do you care what a casual feels is finishing an expansion? Is it because he's not licking your boots asking if he can be 1337 just like you? Being 1337 at Warcraft isn't actually something worth bragging about in the real world. You can brag about being a Pool Champion, or heck even a curling champion but bragging about being elite in warcraft is almost as great as bragging about being a speed walker. :P

[Airwaves]

Exhibit A.

The casual player feels he's "finished" the expansion in LFR.

"HRMMM GUIZ I DONTZ KNOWZ WHYZ POOPLS ARE LEAVING TEH GAMEZ WHEN LFRZ HALPS ALL PLYRZ RAID GOODER!"
-Ghostcrawler

He did finsh cata, he killed deathwing. That is finshing. And anyway heroic deathwing was faceroll even at 0% nerf so its nothing to brag about. Heroic rag was still harder then deathwing even in full heroic ds gear.

[khalltusk]

Now someones about to say 'then go do normal/heroic raids'.

The Normal/heroic raids are not worth the time when you can SEE THE CONTENT in LFR. Content(meaning the dungeon/lore characters) IS the reward.

So what you are saying is you are not motivated enough to try challenging content when you see the path of least resistance? So any other game you play you whack it on easy then whine to the developers and say why is your game so easy? Sounds like the only issue here is yours.

I raid LFR primarily as I do not wish to put aside a large chunk of my spare time on Normal/Heroic raiding anymore. By this I really mean I do not wish to set a specific time and date each week just to raid with a guild. I like to just login and pick up a group and get on with it when it suits me. I am 100% fine with having lesser ilevel epic loot.

[Lomak]

Congratulation's on completing the fischer price version of raiding. Now you've "seen the content" (which could of been done with online video's that require about as much interaction as an LFR "Raid").

Never understood the people who have this idea of "well I don't have time for games (lol, so wtf are you doing with gaming as your hobby?) so when I play games (2nd lol at the immediate contradiction these guys always have) I like them to be thoughtless and petty , requiring as little to no input from the user as possible, because that's "fun", cough* i mean, that's what I have "time" for."

[khalltusk]

Congratulation's on completing the fischer price version of raiding. Now you've "seen the content" (which could of been done with online video's that require about as much interaction as an LFR "Raid").

Never understood the people who have this idea of "well I don't have time for games (lol, so wtf are you doing with gaming as your hobby?) so when I play games (2nd lol at the immediate contradiction these guys always have) I like them to be thoughtless and petty , requiring as little to no input from the user as possible, because that's "fun", cough* i mean, that's what I have "time" for."

It is Fisher price is it not? :P

Still, from the LFR content I have done so far it is no way comparable with watching a video. Sorry please stop using this example. As a tank especially you have to actually do stuff just like in any other raid. It may not be as complex as Heroic or Normal but is not the same as watching a video.

Some people do not have the time to commit to games as much as they used to. If they want to spend SOME of their free time you are in no position to tell them otherwise. Some people just want their games to be pretty mindless button mashing as its less stressful than doing a Heroic raid for example.

If I ever have the spare time I used to I may try raiding Normal/heroic again (flex mode is a possibility via pugging) then I will enjoy it but with my odd time schedule I much prefer the ease of LFR to get in see some of the content and then go and do other stuff in game (pet battles collecting transmog items etc).

[DeadmanWalking]

DS had LFR. Didn't seem to motivate them that much then, and yes LFR is incredibly bad for the raiding community, reasons were cited countless times already. If you can't see why, go and try to form a ToT normal pug and come back when you filled it.

I can tell you for a fact that its easier to fill a tot pug now than the pre-LFR days. The majority of players have gear that makes them capable of helping to down a boss rather than having to be dragged to the loot. The majority of players know the basic mechanics of a fight. A larger portion of the playerbase keeps their gear 'raid ready' with current content as opposed to the old days where a new player would have to do lots of old raids and attunements to get up to the point where they could help in a raid (Nobody wanted to go into old raids to help 1 person gear up when they had everything they needed already).

You don't have to beg for hours for someone to fill a slot because the majority of players are raid locked or required for a later in the week raid run. There are more casuals out there than can pick up at any time to run the content.

This of course is server dependant, But LFR's have made getting a pugger or a group of puggers much easier. On my server they have a 25 man pug group every tuesday that picks up 14+ members in under 20 minutes. This would not be possible in pre-LFR days.

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Congratulation's on completing the fischer price version of raiding. Now you've "seen the content" (which could of been done with online video's that require about as much interaction as an LFR "Raid").

Never understood the people who have this idea of "well I don't have time for games (lol, so wtf are you doing with gaming as your hobby?) so when I play games (2nd lol at the immediate contradiction these guys always have) I like them to be thoughtless and petty , requiring as little to no input from the user as possible, because that's "fun", cough* i mean, that's what I have "time" for."

If you can't tell the difference between experiencing the content and watching Youtube you can't be helped, you mad bro?

Secondly its none of your business why or how we play the game. You can't handle playing with people who play for other reasons than you then quit because this is an MMO, not an elitists paradise. You are more than welcome to cry about it though on a forum.

[DrSteveBrule]

Why do you care what a casual feels is finishing an expansion? Is it because he's not licking your boots asking if he can be 1337 just like you? Being 1337 at Warcraft isn't actually something worth bragging about in the real world. You can brag about being a Pool Champion, or heck even a curling champion but bragging about being elite in warcraft is almost as great as bragging about being a speed walker. :P

You LFR defenders are so contradictory.... it just reinforces the idea that most players don't know what they want.
"Why do you care what a casual feels is finishing an expansion?"

Then why do you? So what if they never finish then, so what if content is too hard for them they won't complete it until the next expansion?

You guys are always bringing up how Cata was too hard and we lost a bunch of subs. Why do you care if they finish or don't finish the expac?
Oh right becuase business good, money is king.
Fine, fight fire with fire.
A system where the typical player feels they've beaten the game in a short time span is not beneficial for a subscription based game.

[Chargilyard]

It's really simple to explain the LFR situation. On one hand, the days of people having to work hard to down bosses are dwindling. Blame it on the video game industry making games that can be beat in a couple of days and have little value beyond the first time through, blame it on the shorter attention span of the game-playing public, whatever you wish. It's been pushed this way for years to get gamers to pay for games more often. This in turn pushes MMO developers to cater to the growing population that wants quicker satisfaction in their gaming experience. Hence, we have LFR.

On the other hand, we have the gamers who want MMOs to remain what they were when they first came to be, a game to play that takes up months of time to play and has no end, other than when they inevitably run out of content, player base, or money. With WoW, the timesink in the beginning was enormous. From my experience during TBC, I didn't see more than a few guilds actually complete the entire endgame, and that made me want to play more. I was invested in seeing that it could be done and wanted to work though the challenge, and the length of time between expansions worked well to allow time for real progression for those who weren't the top tier players, like myself.

As the game has become more casual, I have lost that passion to challenge myself and my raiding group disbanded because of it. It may be a stretch, but I see the same thing that happened to NASCAR happening to WoW. They became very popular and grew their market to incorporate their new fans. Their mistake was they forgot their orginal base and now that the "fad" is gone, they lost a lot of the new fans and alienated a lot of their loyal followers. Now, they struggle to make ends meet, throwing crazy ideas at the format and rules trying in vain to bring back their popularity.

I really don't have a problem with LFR and catering to casuals, as they don't hurt my gameplay in any way, shape, or form. What I see is a slippery slope of Bliz making knee-jerk decisions to try and maintain the "now now now!" crowd. If they make it easy to see all of the content, people will burn through it faster and faster until they literally CANNOT make content to keep up. We are already seeing it in lore, where it seems they are just making up stuff and forcing into the story in some cases. When they hit that point, the people who keep coming in and out of game will simply quit showing up permanently.

[khalltusk]

You LFR defenders are so contradictory.... it just reinforces the idea that most players don't know what they want.
"Why do you care what a casual feels is finishing an expansion?"

Then why do you? So what if they never finish then, so what if content is too hard for them they won't complete it until the next expansion?

You guys are always bringing up how Cata was too hard and we lost a bunch of subs. Why do you care if they finish or don't finish the expac?
Oh right becuase business good, money is king.
Fine, fight fire with fire.
A system where the typical player feels they've beaten the game in a short time span is not beneficial for a subscription based game.

You are making sweeping statements not the best of ideas.

Cata was hard at the start and you know what? I enjoyed that. But for LFD match making I can see how it was harder especially for players who could not or would not make the step up. Blizzard saw this and noticed the subs dropped so made changes.

As for LFR blizzard has not stated anywhere that LFR was the reason why subs have been lost. They did state less engagement from casual players and most of the sub losses were in asia which is a changing market.

So far LFR has been a success. If it causes sub losses then expect changes to it. Just like they have done countless times before.

As to your first point, perhaps some of the people in this thread could not complete the content before and now that they can they quite like it? who knows eh?

[DeadmanWalking]

You LFR defenders are so contradictory.... it just reinforces the idea that most players don't know what they want.
"Why do you care what a casual feels is finishing an expansion?"

Then why do you? So what if they never finish then, so what if content is too hard for them they won't complete it until the next expansion?

You guys are always bringing up how Cata was too hard and we lost a bunch of subs. Why do you care if they finish or don't finish the expac?
Oh right becuase business good, money is king.
Fine, fight fire with fire.
A system where the typical player feels they've beaten the game in a short time span is not beneficial for a subscription based game.

I dont care if someone feels finished with an expansion, what I care about is that they have the opportunity to experience what the game has to offer based on what standards blizzard sets rather than some DB trying to keep the content to themselves in a pathetic attempt to feel special in a video game.

And your entire argument is rediculous, if not for the 90% casuals in this game YOU WOULD NOT HAVE A GAME TO RAID IN and you certainly would not have a player base of people who could potentially decide that LFR sucks and go into a raiding guild. You'd be a small bunch of guys who use to raid in a video game that use to exist but no longer does.

[DrSteveBrule]

I dont care if someone feels finished with an expansion, what I care about is that they have the opportunity to experience what the game has to offer based on what standards blizzard sets rather than some DB trying to keep the content to themselves in a pathetic attempt to feel special in a video game.

And your entire argument is rediculous, if not for the 90% casuals in this game YOU WOULD NOT HAVE A GAME TO RAID IN and you certainly would not have a player base of people who could potentially decide that LFR sucks and go into a raiding guild. You'd be a small bunch of guys who use to raid in a video game that use to exist but no longer does.

They do have the oppertunity the experience what the game offers.... o_o
It's not like their characters are automatically ported out of a raid instance.

Start your own raid, join a pug, find a guild that'll grow with you rather than carry you.
But I wouldn't be opposed to LFR if it wasn't for the Easy Mode that accompanied it.
I'd even prefer a more robust group finder, something that's possibly realm only.

The problem is it's not explicit enough what you have to do. Blizzard NEVER tried to address this, the closest thing is Guild finder but it's shoddy and they implemented it one patch and never looked back.

Also please tell me where any sensible raid leader refuses a raid applicant becuase he doesn't want him getting epics like himself?
They take people who can get the job done.
I'm sure if those very same people who feel "rejected" have their limits as to who they play with as well and won't have the patience to wait for.

And if those casuals didn't support this games raiding scene then I wouldn't be in this position in the first place....

[Seefer]

I dont care if someone feels finished with an expansion, what I care about is that they have the opportunity to experience what the game has to offer based on what standards blizzard sets rather than some DB trying to keep the content to themselves in a pathetic attempt to feel special in a video game.

And your entire argument is rediculous, if not for the 90% casuals in this game YOU WOULD NOT HAVE A GAME TO RAID IN and you certainly would not have a player base of people who could potentially decide that LFR sucks and go into a raiding guild. You'd be a small bunch of guys who use to raid in a video game that use to exist but no longer does.

Actually I would bet if they went back to the better model with no LFR and easy mode crap that the game has become more people would come back, notice the drop in subs after WOTLK? Yeah.

[Otimus]

Actually I would bet if they went back to the better model with no LFR and easy mode crap that the game has become more people would come back, notice the drop in subs after WOTLK? Yeah.

Do you seriously believe this?