I always wanted only to see the content

[Seefer]

The goal of the game is to attract a large number (and panel) of customers and keep them. Not to appease the whines of a minority.

LMAO people who "Complete the content" don't stay, you people may think you are the majority but you AREN'T! You guys fly in and out of this game so fast it would make your head spin.

[DeadmanWalking]

Actually that video wasn't to say he was too good for the content it was to prove that nobody cares in LFR.........nice try at deflecting.

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Ok here is a little proof, sure it's more accessible but just this morning I had a friend whisper me who doesn't raid, not even LFR, telling me she is probably leaving because the game has gone to shit..........and she wasn't the first!

I’m not deflecting, just agreeing with you, just that our ideals of what a bad player is different thats all. My ideal of a bad player is someone who thinks content makes them special and is intollerant of anyone who plays in a different way even though those people don’t effect your game play what so ever.

And OMG!? You had a friend that quit!? Oh Noes! I had two that just came back from a 3 month hiatus because they want to join my Raid Guild and they like LFR. I guess my two friends trump your one friend and I winz!?

[Seefer]

I’m not deflecting, just agreeing with you, just that our ideals of what a bad player is different thats all. My ideal of a bad player is someone who thinks content makes them special and is intollerant of anyone who plays in a different way even though those people don’t effect your game play what so ever.

And OMG!? You had a friend that quit!? Oh Noes! I had two that just came back from a 3 month hiatus because they want to join my Raid Guild and they like LFR. I guess my two friends trump your one friend and I winz!?

Guess you must be a little illiterate seeing as I said she wasn't the first, and a bad player who stands in crap and does suboptimal DPS with no desire to improve holding a group back DOES impact my game play.

[Pull My Finger]

Ok here is a little proof, sure it's more accessible but just this morning I had a friend whisper me who doesn't raid, not even LFR, telling me she is probably leaving because the game has gone to shit..........and she wasn't the first!

That's not a proof - that would be a single sample of an anecdotal evidence. If it contained an applicable argument. It doesn't, it's just banter. "Game has gone to shit" doesn't prove or disapprove anything, other than her being vulgar and having a bad day. It certainly doesn't support your claim.

[Tomana]

LMAO people who "Complete the content" don't stay, you people may think you are the majority but you AREN'T! You guys fly in and out of this game so fast it would make your head spin.

And people who bash their head against it don't either.
Heck, in BC, a lot of guilds dies because of head-bashing on either Lady Vashj/KT or M'uru.

Also, I play this game since 2006, without really stopping. So no, I don't "fly".

[Thimagryn]

LFR isn't the same. No one even pays attention to the story in the instance and that's what you're going after right? LFR is just a glorified let's play with repair bills and high blood pressure if you actually care at all about performance.

So where do people get the story out of raids? In normal and heroic? Not at all?

[Ichifails]

I’m not deflecting, just agreeing with you, just that our ideals of what a bad player is different thats all. My ideal of a bad player is someone who thinks content makes them special and is intollerant of anyone who plays in a different way even though those people don’t effect your game play what so ever.

And OMG!? You had a friend that quit!? Oh Noes! I had two that just came back from a 3 month hiatus because they want to join my Raid Guild and they like LFR. I guess my two friends trump your one friend and I winz!?

This can go back and forth :P I know more people that quit because doing the "hard" content gives no reward than probably you've met since you play WoW. Can't use that as an argument because I can't prove it and I can't prove that they would stay or not if there was let's say Flex Raid instead of LFR (even tho they probably would).

[Otimus]

I have no issue with casuals, I have issues with bads pure and simple and LFR is so full of bads it makes me ill.

The fact that you use the term "bads" essentially tells me all I'll ever need to know about your opinions, your attitude, and such.

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LMAO people who "Complete the content" don't stay, you people may think you are the majority but you AREN'T! You guys fly in and out of this game so fast it would make your head spin.

Then who is the majority :x

It certainly isn't those few hundred thousand (or however many) who are doing top end content.

[DeadmanWalking]

Guess you must be a little illiterate seeing as I said she wasn't the first, and a bad player who stands in crap and does suboptimal DPS with no desire to improve holding a group back DOES impact my game play.

Maybe I was not obvious enough for you, your friend leaving and my friends coming back is not rock solid evidence of sub drops and content causality. For every friend you have thats left I have a friend that loves LFR, and then some.

As far as people who don't improve themselves when was the last time you tried to help someone get better without going into full on nerd-rage insult mode?

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The reason why people don’t get booted more often from LFR more often is because the people in there are working hard at getting the content down and the nature of the game doesn’t let you see what other people are doing. Tanks have a giant monsters crotch in their faces, melee dps have a monster butt in their faces, Healers are staring at life bars and ranged guys are watching their procs and the floor around them for bad. The only exception to this is the monk healer as they draw a line to their target with a channeled heal and the camera snaps to them. My mistweaver has kicked so many people I am on a 4 hour lock out from kicking.

However LFR isnt to blame for bad players going afk, bad players are to blame for it/ It is not LFR’s fault everyone else hads to work harder to make up for a jackass wasting everyones time.

You get out of LFR what you put into it, if you go in to sharpen your muscle memory and learn attunement disks/dorummu’s maze/Whirlwind alley and contribute to taking down a boss them you come have gotten a reward for your efforts. If you go in with a shitty mentality of going AFK to get purples then you will get purples but you are not getting the experience that effort would of given you and you didn’t learn anything. Blizzard can’t force you to learn.

Blame the playah, not the game.

[Deleted]

The goal of the game is to attract a large number (and panel) of customers and keep them. Not to appease the whines of a minority.

Well here's the dildo. You attract them, give them what they want. Now what makes them want to stay?

[DeadmanWalking]

Well here's the dildo. You attract them, give them what they want. Now what makes them want to stay?

Are you suggesting that they will stay longer in a raid guild than in LFR? The guilds with real skill clear content before its released in LFR, the rest clear them soon after LFR. If someone is there just to see content then Raid content isn't going to hold them any longer than LFR. These people can't be held regardless of what difficulty the content is set at. Under this logic the game would have to be set only on hardcore mode in its entirety and such a game would not hold subscribers.

[Seefer]

Are you suggesting that they will stay longer in a raid guild than in LFR? The guilds with real skill clear content before its released in LFR, the rest clear them soon after LFR. If someone is there just to see content then Raid content isn't going to hold them any longer than LFR. These people can't be held regardless of what difficulty the content is set at. Under this logic the game would have to be set only on hardcore mode in its entirety and such a game would not hold subscribers.

Funny, it held subscriptions before LFR, now it's not holding them, hmmmmmm

[Lomak]

The goal of the game is to attract a large number (and panel) of customers and keep them. Not to appease the whines of a minority.

Here I was thinking the point of a game is to be fun (attracting large number of "consumers" is sort of a by-product of that)

Blizzards days are numbered.

They used to be a company that made good games, those good games drove hardcore players to them, that buzz pulled in even more people, now blizzard is where they are today, after YEARS of building up to it.

Now they are a company that is trying to squeeze profit out of every single possible avenue, that drives away core gamers, that drives an entire different buzz around the company, and that sure as shit doesn't take as long to tear down as it did to build up.

[DeadmanWalking]

Funny, it held subscriptions before LFR, now it's not holding them, hmmmmmm

You have any numbers to back up that 'fact'? Oh no, you don't. Under your 'logic' Raid Guilds are loosing members so that content isn't worth keeping either. Raid Guilds are dropping 'cause the game went to shit', so hey, lets axe raid content.

As far as subscriptions go Wow would of seen even deeper losses of subscriptions if not for LFR.

You are the minority. The Majority support the game that produces the content. If they remove LFR they have to make content for the majority to keep them interested in the game. They will pull way waaaaaay back on raid content if LFR goes away (which it isn't). No LFR=Far Less Raid content Less often.

[Dormie]

Then who is the majority :x

It certainly isn't those few hundred thousand (or however many) who are doing top end content.

It doesn't have to be. I never got past SSC in BC, only did LK after the nerf in wrath, never saw Ulduar when it was current, and only did normal Firelands in Cata.
Get it through your head that it's not only the 'hardcore elite' that think LFR is a plague on WoW.

You have any numbers to back up that 'fact'? Oh no, you don't. Under your 'logic' Raid Guilds are loosing members so that content isn't worth keeping either. Raid Guilds are dropping 'cause the game went to shit', so hey, lets axe raid content.

As far as subscriptions go Wow would of seen even deeper losses of subscriptions if not for LFR.

You are the minority. The Majority support the game that produces the content. If they remove LFR they have to make content for the majority to keep them interested in the game. They will pull way waaaaaay back on raid content if LFR goes away (which it isn't). No LFR=Far Less Raid content Less often.

I like how your first sentence is you asking for proof and then you spout off a bunch of conclusions that you have made like its fact.
You have no clue what the majority or minority wants.

You say WoW would have further losses without LFR. I must be missing your proof. Oh right, that's just another fabricated argument.
And without LFR, less raid content is made...right. That's why there was so little raid content from Vanilla-Firelands.

Atleast the people against LFR have something backing up their claim, such as the drop in subs starting after Cata came out. But nope, there's no undeniable proof so I'm sure Cata and the dumbing down of the game had nothing to do with it. Herp derp 'logical fallacy'

You know what makes sense? The claim that the changes made have kept subs when the subs took a bigger nosedive after the changes.

This is why there's no point in arguing.

[DrSteveBrule]

As far as subscriptions go Wow would of seen even deeper losses of subscriptions if not for LFR.

You are the minority. The Majority support the game that produces the content. If they remove LFR they have to make content for the majority to keep them interested in the game. They will pull way waaaaaay back on raid content if LFR goes away (which it isn't). No LFR=Far Less Raid content Less often.

Pretty sure sub losses are worse now WITH LFR than they were without.

And if they pull way back on raid content that might be good thing.
See at the moment they think more bosses = good.
But right now I feel they're lacking quality and originality.

See now that you can blaze through content the week of LFR's release they have to divide the raid into wings and stagnate their releases.
If they have to do stupid shit like this for the longevity of content then something is wrong.

They feel pressured now more than ever to pump out more raid content because we consume it so fast because that's what is typical behaviour expected out of this "majority" you speak so fondly of. They pick up a game and want to get it over with.

It's not uncommon or wrong it's just how it is.
I'll even admit to this, I joined a good guild to get through the raid as quick as possible to then unsub.
Players are not willing to devote so much time and interest into a game but the trick is to make them.
That's what makes a good game. Games that make you addicted are good. Games that you can leave and come back as you please becuase nothing is holding your attention for more than a month is shit.

[Otimus]

It doesn't have to be. I never got past SSC in BC, only did LK after the nerf in wrath, never saw Ulduar when it was current, and only did normal Firelands in Cata.
Get it through your head that it's not only the 'hardcore elite' that think LFR is a plague on WoW.





I like how your first sentence is you asking for proof and then you spout off a bunch of conclusions that you have made like its fact.
You have no clue what the majority or minority wants.

You say WoW would have further losses without LFR. I must be missing your proof. Oh right, that's just another fabricated argument.
And without LFR, less raid content is made...right. That's why there was so little raid content from Vanilla-Firelands.

Atleast the people against LFR have something backing up their claim, such as the drop in subs starting after Cata came out. But nope, there's no undeniable proof so I'm sure Cata and the dumbing down of the game had nothing to do with it. Herp derp 'logical fallacy'

You know what makes sense? The claim that the changes made have kept subs when the subs took a bigger nosedive after the changes.

This is why there's no point in arguing.

Wait, what? What does that have to do with me asking who the majority is :x Most people prior didn't step foot in any raids. At all. So I really don't see where you're going with this train of thought exactly.


(Also, for the record, Cata's sub drops were only really ever slowed one time in the entire expansion, and that's when LFR and the 4.3 Heroics came out. Frankly, I mostly think the importance of raid content one way or the other is vastly overstated. People just need stuff to keep them occupied, and it's more apparent now more than ever because the game used to have subscriber churn (There's more people who no longer play WoW, than are currently playing WoW, total.) and historically, until LFR, raiding content wasn't really that sort of thing. It's still, relatively speaking, not that sort of thing.)

[Seefer]

You have any numbers to back up that 'fact'? Oh no, you don't. Under your 'logic' Raid Guilds are loosing members so that content isn't worth keeping either. Raid Guilds are dropping 'cause the game went to shit', so hey, lets axe raid content.

As far as subscriptions go Wow would of seen even deeper losses of subscriptions if not for LFR.

You are the minority. The Majority support the game that produces the content. If they remove LFR they have to make content for the majority to keep them interested in the game. They will pull way waaaaaay back on raid content if LFR goes away (which it isn't). No LFR=Far Less Raid content Less often.

I think these guys about summed it up rather nicely................

It doesn't have to be. I never got past SSC in BC, only did LK after the nerf in wrath, never saw Ulduar when it was current, and only did normal Firelands in Cata.
Get it through your head that it's not only the 'hardcore elite' that think LFR is a plague on WoW.

Pretty sure sub losses are worse now WITH LFR than they were without.

And if they pull way back on raid content that might be good thing.
See at the moment they think more bosses = good.
But right now I feel they're lacking quality and originality.

See now that you can blaze through content the week of LFR's release they have to divide the raid into wings and stagnate their releases.
If they have to do stupid shit like this for the longevity of content then something is wrong.

They feel pressured now more than ever to pump out more raid content because we consume it so fast because that's what is typical behaviour expected out of this "majority" you speak so fondly of. They pick up a game and want to get it over with.

It's not uncommon or wrong it's just how it is.
I'll even admit to this, I joined a good guild to get through the raid as quick as possible to then unsub.
Players are not willing to devote so much time and interest into a game but the trick is to make them.
That's what makes a good game. Games that make you addicted are good. Games that you can leave and come back as you please becuase nothing is holding your attention for more than a month is shit.

[Thimagryn]

Atleast the people against LFR have something backing up their claim, such as the drop in subs starting after Cata came out.

And Videogames cause Violence, right?

[DeadmanWalking]

Pretty sure sub losses are worse now WITH LFR than they were without.

And if they pull way back on raid content that might be good thing.
See at the moment they think more bosses = good.
But right now I feel they're lacking quality and originality.

See now that you can blaze through content the week of LFR's release they have to divide the raid into wings and stagnate their releases.
If they have to do stupid shit like this for the longevity of content then something is wrong.

They feel pressured now more than ever to pump out more raid content because we consume it so fast because that's what is typical behaviour expected out of this "majority" you speak so fondly of. They pick up a game and want to get it over with.

It's not uncommon or wrong it's just how it is.
I'll even admit to this, I joined a good guild to get through the raid as quick as possible to then unsub.
Players are not willing to devote so much time and interest into a game but the trick is to make them.
That's what makes a good game. Games that make you addicted are good. Games that you can leave and come back as you please becuase nothing is holding your attention for more than a month is shit.

You mean they put in LFR and subs continued to go down for a game 8 years old with lots of online competition? It must be that feature you don't like thats driving everyone away! Its the content you do like that keeps them and the one you don't like that drives them away because the whole world plays the game the same way you do! Its not just wonky math, its fantasy math!

Every single subscription loss has its own reason for subscription loss and its a diseased way of thinking, and very self centered, to think that everyone of those losses, or even a majority, are over a game style that you don't like. Its an absolutely ridiculous way of thinking. You are special because you play this way but oh, everyone thinks the same way you do because they all play the same way you do.

There are 4.5 million individual reasons why subscriptions were lost, and the majority of them are in Asia where they don't play under the same rules or ways of thinking as their western counter parts. People grew up and got jobs/lives, there are two dozen MMo's out there, 3 dozen small social mmo's and hundreds of online console games. Wow got huge because of a generation of young people who embraced the social aspect of the gaming technology and now those gamers have gained adult lives with adult responcibilities. Others have gone to play other games because they are burned out on wow because its absolutely normal to stop playing the same video game after 8 years.

In fact a lot of people burn out on the game because they can't handle changes in their environments and it doesn't matter what Blizzard does its bad. A lot of these people will pick out anything to attribute to leaving the game, including opening up the games content to all of its player base rather than allowing a few to cherry pick the player base.

LFR isn't going anywhere and you can cry about it all you want on the forums that you want, the truth of the matter is Blizzard doesn't want the minority of the player base dictating who gets to experience the end game.

You cry that Blizzard is only thinking about the money when it comes to not excluding the casuals, well it is a business. If you don't take care of the business there is no MMO. Being exclusionary is awesome and all when you live in a fantasy world with no real world consequences but in the real world where a player base pays the bills you have to take care of your majority before you even consider your Minority. The Raiders are lucky Blizzard decided to add LFR to the game because obviously some bean counter called them out on it and instead of dumping Raiding all togeather they created the LFR system to feed all of their customers rather than not feeding the raider at all.

Blizzard has repeatedly said LFR is going no where, and you know why? Because they actually have numbers, unlike everyone else on these boards, and those numbers are going to ensure that Raiding stays in the game, including LFR.