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  1. #321
    I am Murloc! Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    You are only tired of the majority speak because it and facts dont support your opinion and viewpoint. If it was a fact that supported your LFR hatin then you would be rubbing it in our faces.
    You have no facts........none at all, you don't know the majority of anything, you sit there and say there are millions of reasons people leave and we don't know them, well news flash hot shot you don't know everything either so please shut the hell up with this majority crap.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    I don't think you can even follow that logic. I don't presume to speak for the majority, I am a raider too but unlike you I don't hate on LFR because it gives everyone the potential to see the content. I don't derive my uniqueness from keeping people from experiencing content. I see the benefits of LFR and I use those benefits to better my Raid Guilds Progression. I don't care how you or any one else progresses in this game as the only way someone effects my game is if they buy my gems, echants, gear, enhancements and the like on LFR/Normal/Heroic gear they find in the appropriate tiers and in doing so they are only making me richer.

    I don't scream about not wanting to pay school taxes because I don't have children and then benefit from an educated society by driving over bridges, paved roads and shopping in stores and businesses created by people with a public education.
    Nice to know bad players don't effect your enjoyment of the game but it does mine especially when we have to keep swapping out a pug if someone can't make the raid because they think they know the fights because of LFR, not to mention the piss poor players IN LFR.

  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Even tho the evidence shows the oposite?

    This thread is a prime example... the most common admission is from players that raided Normals previously who now do LFR instead.

    Show me the posts from guys who never ever raided whatsoever in the past and now raid LFR.... thats right its a clear minority.
    No, that's not the case at all.

    While there may be a small number of players who once upon a time raided normal (in Wrath) and who now do only LFR, the great majority of players who do only LFR have not done organized raiding at all otherwise, aside from the occasional pug or earlier-tier guild run.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Bull. If that was true those people would of left long before LFR came out, which was only 9 months ago. People that weren't raiding obviously had enough to do before LFR to keep them subscribed.
    I left in early Cataclysm, and came back only because LFR was being added (although I didn't use it until MoP).

    The decline in Cataclysm was stopped for half a year after LFR was added, and I think a lot of that was people returning now that they weren't being excluded. Exclude them again and they will leave again.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  4. #324
    My definition of "raiding" is guilds who are raiding in Normal or Heroic. LFR is not part of the "raiding scene".
    Well, shock horror, your definition is wrong. Raiding is any group of more than 5 people in a PvE environment. That's it.

    Top guilds said they noticed a drop off of skilled players. Nothing about LFR. (And, to be a "skilled player", I apparently need to have been raiding for 3 xpacs heroic current content. So how the fuck is a new player to the game meant to be "skilled" if they don't even get a chance to start?)

    Ask ANY guild thats raiding how many players theyve recruited from LFR... then u will see for yourself.
    Find me a guild that went into LFR to actively look for new players.


    Anyway, now I'm finally home and have time to type, here's something to think about:

    If LFR is the reason why many people aren't normal raiding now, that must mean they find normal raiding worse than LFR. Why is that do you wonder?

    I know why it is for me: The ratio of good guilds compared to drama, people hopping, overly entitled twits who want to control everything, angsty teenagers etc etc is appalling. There is so much unbelievable drama and elitism in, shall I say, "entry level" normal-mode guilds, that I don't blame people for going "sod this."

    "Oh, but get some experience in these and you can then join any guild!"
    True, true.. except, why the hell would I want to bother with all that crap when I'm here to have fun playing a game. If I need to join guilds where it's full of drama or abusive RLs, then I won't want any part of your "raiding scene", and I'll be glad for you all to moan how no one wants to play with you.
    Last edited by TyrantWave; 2013-07-10 at 05:35 PM.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    While there may be a small number of players who once upon a time raided normal (in Wrath) and who now do only LFR,
    I think there may be more of those players than you think. I am one of them. In my case, I know I'm unlikely to put up with guild searching/hopping/drama just to raid again.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    There are many threads about it on these very forums. Loads of well-established and experienced guilds and players have noted the severe lack of skilled players around. Thier apps system has all but ground to a halt. Top guilds like Paragon dropping from 25man to 10man and stating clearly that its due to the lack of skilled players available. Since then dozens of other top guilds have done the same.

    The fact that if ur honest u will admit that on your own realm u have noticed that all the well-established guilds from back in the day, most (if not all) have folded and disappeared.

    I can even cite the documentary "Race to World first" which is set in cata and based around Blood Legion who clearly state on the record that they have noticed a huge drop off in skilled available players.






    My definition of "raiding" is guilds who are raiding in Normal or Heroic. LFR is not part of the "raiding scene".

    LFR may have been originally opened to help players get into raiding but in reality its hindered raiding guilds. Very obviously so.

    Ru really trying to tell me that LFR teaches new players anything about real guild raiding whatsoever? ofc not. No raid leader, no tactics, minimal wiping, no vent. Theyre actually worlds apart. New players to Wow will learn absolutely nothing at all about what will be expected from them when they join a raiding guild.

    Raiding guilds are shouting very loudly that LFR players r either not bothering to step up to raiding or the ones who do r totally clueless, or just bad.

    Im sure there are some very nice stories of some great players moving up but that the exception not the norm...

    Ask ANY guild thats raiding how many players theyve recruited from LFR... then u will see for yourself.
    I swear there is no helping you.

    Those guilds are top level guilds. They might see a drop in potential candidates but in all honesty hard to figure out why so few people are applying to them. (I know paragon limits it to their country so thats one possible reason).

    I am honest and the guilds I were in folded before LFR was even a wet dream. Vanilla our guild folded prior to TBC launch a new guild formed in TBC we folded shortly at the end of Wrath well before LFR came into it. Guilds rise and fall since forever.

    Where did I say LFR teaches people about guild raiding? not once have I said this. It introduces you to raiding yes (a very easy form of raiding) The average player in LFr might not be that skilled as there are simply SO many more people raiding there you are bound to find the less skilled players.

    You use anecdotal evidence as 100% truth. No doubt some guilds may be affected but with out raw numbers on whos doing what its just opinion. Don't get me wrong LFR has its faults but its not the raid killer. The amount of people doing heroic raiding has always been low. Has it gotten lower? probably but its not going to be massively due to LFR.

  7. #327
    OP is master troll.

  8. #328
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    While there may be a small number of players who once upon a time raided normal (in Wrath) and who now do only LFR,.

    I think there may be more of those players than you think. I am one of them. In my case, I know I'm unlikely to put up with guild searching/hopping/drama just to raid again.
    Agreed Osmeric...

    The OP of this very thread for example maybe?

    And the large number of players who on this very thread have clearly siad they have done the same.

    The amount of players who have stepped down from raiding guilds and now just play around in LFR is probably a large and significant number of players. Hence my point that LFR may well have been setup to help raiding but in reality its done the opposite.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Agreed Osmeric...

    The OP of this very thread for example maybe?

    And the large number of players who on this very thread have clearly siad they have done the same.

    The amount of players who have stepped down from raiding guilds and now just play around in LFR is probably a large and significant number of players. Hence my point that LFR may well have been setup to help raiding but in reality its done the opposite.
    You say it hasn't helped raiding, I say it's done raiding a massive service. Are normal mode, elitist filled raiding guilds dying out? You betcha! And it's great.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    You have no facts........none at all, you don't know the majority of anything, you sit there and say there are millions of reasons people leave and we don't know them, well news flash hot shot you don't know everything either so please shut the hell up with this majority crap.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Nice to know bad players don't effect your enjoyment of the game but it does mine especially when we have to keep swapping out a pug if someone can't make the raid because they think they know the fights because of LFR, not to mention the piss poor players IN LFR.
    Do you listen to yourself when you get all wrapped up in your nerd-rage? My argument is 'There are millions of reasons why millions of people left' and you think that accusing me of not knowing everything some how dismantles my argument? I'm starting to question whom I am debating with because you seem incapable of having an intellectual discussion on the topic. Hot shot? Shut the hell up? You don't know everything? What part of this is intellectual? Is your daddy gonna beat up my daddy next because he is bigger?

    And As I have told you before your interpretation of a bad player varies, You fulfill my interpretation of a baddie very adequately.

  11. #331
    I am Murloc! crakerjack's Avatar
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    Quit before 4.3 was released... got a 10 day trial when the patch hit and tested it. I didn't even know that it was alot easier, I just thought the game became stupidly easy. I don't hate LFR because it's quick, I hate it because it's a lower difficulty. Why make the content as easy as possible? It's like getting a new video game and just setting it on the easiest setting so that you can grow through it as quick as possible. Since when has rushing through something been the most fun way to enjoy it? All you end up doing is redoing that same content w/ no challenge. The reason I loved heroic was because it offered a challenge that wasn't easy to beat. Maybe people just want the easy route and have never wanted to work for something, but I come from a competitive athletic background and winning was always my goal. I didn't get any joy out of beating bad teams 13-0, but beating a great team in penalty kicks or a late game goal... those were the game I lived for... so when it came to WoW, why bother wasting my time on easy content when I can challenge myself and feel more accomplished? I'm supposed to be a hero in the game, so do heroes take the easy route or do they keep their head up and tackle the difficult content head on? You decide.
    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

  12. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    Where did I say LFR teaches people about guild raiding? not once have I said this. It introduces you to raiding yes (a very easy form of raiding) The average player in LFr might not be that skilled as there are simply SO many more people raiding there you are bound to find the less skilled players.
    U said that LFR is helping raiding guilds, im showing u that it isnt.

    Its a part of Wow that is in direct competition for players against raiding guilds. It does more harm than good for Raiding guilds.

    Ok, if raiding guilds were all doing so well then why are they all saying they have the same problems with recruitment? Why r raiding guilds closing more frequently now than ever before?


    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    Those guilds are top level guilds. They might see a drop in potential candidates but in all honesty hard to figure out why so few people are applying to them.
    Normal raiding guilds supplies players to the Top raiding guilds... if your Normal raiding guilds r starved of players then by default there are fewer players skilled enough to step up to top level raiding. They are intertwined at a cellular level.

    Im using the 'Top guilds' as proof theres an issue because theyre the ones who people actually listen to when they make public statements. And most have pretty much stated their recruitment has gone to shit so theyre downsizing to 10mans. Im sure there are many Normal raiding guilds complaining their recruitment has gone to shit also, but their comments r lost in these forums.

  13. #333
    LFR is an interactive Youtube video of a raid.

  14. #334
    Epic! dryankem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    My definition of "raiding" is guilds who are raiding in Normal or Heroic. LFR is not part of the "raiding scene".

    LFR may have been originally opened to help players get into raiding but in reality its hindered raiding guilds. Very obviously so.

    Ru really trying to tell me that LFR teaches new players anything about real guild raiding whatsoever? ofc not. No raid leader, no tactics, minimal wiping, no vent. Theyre actually worlds apart. New players to Wow will learn absolutely nothing at all about what will be expected from them when they join a raiding guild.

    Raiding guilds are shouting very loudly that LFR players r either not bothering to step up to raiding or the ones who do r totally clueless, or just bad.

    Im sure there are some very nice stories of some great players moving up but that the exception not the norm...

    Ask ANY guild thats raiding how many players theyve recruited from LFR... then u will see for yourself.
    Your definition of a raiding is only your opinion and you must accept other people might have a difference of opinion (although I refer to Normal/Heroic as raiding and LFR as LFR but the actual definition of raiding is content for a PVE group of more than 5).

    As for LFR not translating into normal, last Sunday I did a normal raid for the first time (if you don't count Tol Barad or soloing older content) with a group of players that haven't raided in years or have never raided and we were successful because of LFR. We did the first 4 bosses in MV in about 2hrs and one shot 2 of the bosses, the only one that gave us any real difficulty was the stone guard. Our ilvls where anywhere from 480-500 so we out geared the instance but we only had to learn the mechanics that weren't in the LFR because we already knew the mechanics that were in the LFR.

    I even tanked and I have very little tanking experience in my life, but I queued up to MV in LFR to get a feel for it, a couple hours before we did normal and I could get the feel for the debuffs to watch for and when to tank swap (note I had never tanked in a MOP LFR and only once in the Cata LFR).



    Before LFR where do you think people learned to actually raid? Do you seriously think they learned to raid in LFD?

  15. #335
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrantWave View Post
    You say it hasn't helped raiding, I say it's done raiding a massive service. Are normal mode, elitist filled raiding guilds dying out? You betcha! And it's great.
    And i highlight this kind of hatred towards Raiders as being a significant part of why so many of us have left Wow altogether. The game is working against us and the community too.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Agreed Osmeric...

    The OP of this very thread for example maybe?

    And the large number of players who on this very thread have clearly siad they have done the same.

    The amount of players who have stepped down from raiding guilds and now just play around in LFR is probably a large and significant number of players. Hence my point that LFR may well have been setup to help raiding but in reality its done the opposite.
    Happy players dont complain about LFR affecting Raid Guilds, ever notice that? The amount of 'large number of players who on this very thread have clearly siad they have done the same' is infintessimal when compared to the power of the forc..... er the amount of happy players who dont even go to mmochampions to use these forums.

    That being said just because people bitch and whine on a forum does not actually mean a lot of people are bitching and complaining. I think if you read this whole thread again you will find between 6 and a dozen people who just repeat their crying over and over again. Its like wack a mole, yes hundreds of times you wack mole sin the head but if you pay attention its the same dozen wack-amoles popping up again and again.

    You keep using this stupid argument that since people complain its obviously a problem, its only a problem because they support your viewpoint. Nothing more.

  17. #337
    Scarab Lord foxHeart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outofmana View Post
    You might as well check youtube vids of the fights, that's about the same experience as LFR and you get to see all content.
    This is basically it. Not trying to be snobby or an elitist but LFR is so braindead easy and ungratifying that you may as well just watch someone else do it to say that you've "seen all the content". In fact, some people do. LFR can be afk'd through easily.
    Look! Words!

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    And i highlight this kind of hatred towards Raiders as being a significant part of why so many of us have left Wow altogether. The game is working against us and the community too.
    It doesn't highlight hate towards Raiders, it highlights hatred towards elitists. Elistists who don't feel special unless they are the 10% able to see content and then feel it gives them the right to lord it over others. I'm a raider and *I* hope elitists take a hike and find another game to play.

  19. #339
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    My argument is 'There are millions of reasons why millions of people left' .
    Well i can bet u my house that Blizzard do not take this position at all.

    Its bullcrap of the highest order to try to insinuate that every individual who unsubbed from Wow did it for a totally unique reason. There will most definitely be a common factor, or factors, which can be highlighted to why so many players unsubbed. Its these commonalities which Blizzard will know and theyll be working on addressing.

    It works in exactly the same way to define exactly why players stay in the game too.

    Ofc its open to discussion and argument as to why us forum-users think r the reasons, which explains why we r here in the first place right

  20. #340
    Deleted
    If you only raid LFR and never set foot in normal raids, you dont know what raiding is at all.

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