WW Mastery redesigned (again) - Time to get 'rebalanced' (again)

[Frogged]

I still don't get "the sky is falling" feeling from this change

You bring up a good point, but I think most people treat it like the sky is falling because of one important problem. Generally, if you wait to provide feedback to Blizzard, they tell you it's too late in the patch cycle and save the changes for the next one. They almost never make major changes in late PTR (despite the fact that they should) and it's almost unheard of that Blizzard would make a significant change after a patch launch but before the next.

If Blizzard weren't so dedicated to saving all changes for patches, I don't think players would jump to conclusions as often. A scenario in which Blizzard would consider a major change post-patch is a scenario in which players feel as though they can have a little patience with changes and feel them out. The current scenario poses two options: (1) Scream as loud as you can the moment you find out about a change, or (2) wait 6 months until the next patch.

[Rockets]

You bring up a good point, but I think most people treat it like the sky is falling because of one important problem. Generally, if you wait to provide feedback to Blizzard, they tell you it's too late in the patch cycle and save the changes for the next one. They almost never make major changes in late PTR (despite the fact that they should) and it's almost unheard of that Blizzard would make a significant change after a patch launch but before the next.

If Blizzard weren't so dedicated to saving all changes for patches, I don't think players would jump to conclusions as often. A scenario in which Blizzard would consider a major change post-patch is a scenario in which players feel as though they can have a little patience with changes and feel them out. The current scenario poses two options: (1) Scream as loud as you can the moment you find out about a change, or (2) wait 6 months until the next patch.

You're conflating "scream as loud as you can" with "providing feedback". Especially in a thread on a fansite class forum, where you can't reasonably assume that anyone from Blizzard will see your post.

Providing feedback involves going to the PTR forum and posting your worries there about the mechanics of the change, or about how you think the numbers will be too low once the change is in place. If you're genuinely worried that Blizzard is unaware that this is a nerf, or you're worried that they might think WW damage needs to be nerfed by this amount, then posting those concerns in a clear and constructive way on the PTR forum is the way to have an actual chance of getting Blizzard to change things.

Screaming as loud as you can apparently involves posting things like "welp that's it I'm going back to my rogue" in a thread on a fansite, like some people in this thread have done. The chance that that will convince Blizzard to do anything at all is 0%, and frankly it makes it harder to have a useful conversation about what further changes might be needed.

[Frogged]

-SNIPPED-

True enough. I meant scream as loud as you can in a figurative sense. People talking about rerolling in this thread are probably not contributing too much to the discussion and that's not what I meant. I was more referring to the fact that we should make our opinions known to Blizzard, and early.

[Crevan]

Already posted my initial results on EJ forums, but gonna share the numbers here as well to put the changes into some sort of perspective. As always with PTR stuff, nothing is final, results are provisional and some assumptions were made. Calculations were done for ilvl547 with just shy of 9.6k in each stat. I took the performance with Roro and 5.3 mastery as a baseline.

5.3 Mastery, Roro equipped and used: 100%.
5.3 Mastery, Roro proc disabled (its static agility still accounted for): 88.8%.
5.3 Mastery, 2 Jujus equipped (impossible, using for reference only): 91.95%.
5.4 Mastery, 1 Juju equipped + static agility from Roro: 85.01%.

I assume 2xJuju with 5.4 mastery will give 3% extra, just like in 5.3. So in that case, we're looking at ~12% loss.

The new mastery can be misleading in a way - we'll generally be generating more TEB stacks per minute, but it will take longer to cap out on them. In my example I have 17.8 TEB/min for 33.7 sec to get 10 and 44.5% uptime in 5.3, against 19.8 TEB/min for 45.5 sec to get 15 and 33.9% uptime in 5.4.

[Justwait]

https://twitter.com/devolore/status/354740912548622337

Just to add to the others suggesting; Make sure you provide feedback on the official forums as well!

[Rockets]

Data mining is in:

Mastery: Bottled Fury - When you generate Tigereye Brew charges, you have a 16% chance to generate an additional charge. Monk - Windwalker Spec.

So it looks like 300 mastery for +1% proc chance, for now.

[Deleted]

So, after 20 something Lei-Shen kills + just as many coins wasted, I finally land my RoRO. Log-on to mmo-c to DL zephy only to find this. To quote them EMO's; FML.

[Hinalover]

Data mining is in:


So it looks like 300 mastery for +1% proc chance, for now.

So I was correct in that the 16% base Mastery. Good to know.

[Jayma]

That is the same scaling as our current Mastery correct?

If that's the case then in order to get to 100% (the same TEB generation as live) you would be giving up 100% dmg bonus for a 75% static dmg bonus?

That would mean this mastery is already significantly worse before we even include the RoRo mechanic.

[Rockets]

It's the same scaling, but the offset is different. On live you get the first 10% for free, 16% for the base mastery, then +1% per 300 mastery. The new proc is pure mastery, without the base 10%. So for a 100% proc in the new system, that amount of mastery would make your TEB be worth 110% damage.

That's 25200 mastery rating, for the curious.

[Hinalover]

That is the same scaling as our current Mastery correct?

If that's the case then in order to get to 100% (the same TEB generation as live) you would be giving up 100% dmg bonus for a 75% static dmg bonus?

That would mean this mastery is already significantly worse before we even include the RoRo mechanic.

Not exactly...It's 0.2% every 600 Mastery added to the base 1% TeB. Given that Bottle Fury has a 1.6% base Mastery you get the point. As to reach 100% proc chance you need 25,200 Mastery Rating, 22,200 Mastery Rating if you factor in the Mastery buff.

[Jayma]

Not exactly...It's 0.2% every 600 Mastery added to the base 1% TeB. Given that Bottle Fury has a 1.6% base Mastery you get the point. As to reach 100% proc chance you need 25,200 Mastery Rating, 22,200 Mastery Rating if you factor in the Mastery buff.

My mistake, but the overall point about how weak the mastery is and how serious this nerf is beyond just rune still stands.

[Deleted]

Not exactly...It's 0.2% every 600 Mastery added to the base 1% TeB. Given that Bottle Fury has a 1.6% base Mastery you get the point. As to reach 100% proc chance you need 25,200 Mastery Rating, 22,200 Mastery Rating if you factor in the Mastery buff.

if we use teb for 100% uptime on live we get 5 stacks in this 15 sec.
for 600 mastery rating we get 0.2% on each of this 5 stacks = 1% overall dmg.

on ptr we will get not even 4 stacks in 15sec.
for 600 mastery we will get 2% more stacks for 5% dmg. (4*5)-(4*1.02*5) = 0,4% overall dmg

=> the new mastery iss not even half so good as the current one.

this has nothing to do with RoR its just a nerf.

[Moncoko]

to add to the feedback, I've created a "WWers heal" thread on the ptr forum. Since I don't have the time to go through all my logs, I'd appreciate if you all could add to the thread in hopes of making the devs realize just how little healing we provide:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9454615416

[Hinalover]

if we use teb for 100% uptime on live we get 5 stacks in this 15 sec.
for 600 mastery rating we get 0.2% on each of this 5 stacks = 1% overall dmg.

on ptr we will get not even 4 stacks in 15sec.
for 600 mastery we will get 2% more stacks for 5% dmg. (4*5)-(4*1.02*5) = 0,4% overall dmg

=> the new mastery iss not even half so good as the current one.

this has nothing to do with RoR its just a nerf.

So I take it that you want Blizzard to revert the 4 Chi to TeB to 3 Chi (personally would not object), but also buff the TeB damage to 10% up from 5%. This would bring us back to the 1% overall damage. Or buff the base mastery to 2.5% every 600 mastery rating and to boost TeB damage to 10%.

[Rockets]

My mistake, but the overall point about how weak the mastery is and how serious this nerf is beyond just rune still stands.

Sure, so at 22.2k mastery on gear, you'll have the same uptime as in live, with 25% less damage. Uptime today is, what, 50%? 40%? So it's a 10-12% nerf to overall damage.

At mastery below 22.2k, you'll have less uptime, where on live the buff would be smaller. You can do the math if you like, but it'll probably still land in the "10-15% nerf" range.

So "how serious this nerf is" is roughly a 10% dps loss. That's not insignificant, but it's also easily fixable by eg. a 10% buff to the RSK debuff.

[Wildspirit]

I'm still not seeing how we're gonna be competitive against all other classes with insane burst at pull and execute comes 25-30%...

All I see is some linear dps throughout the fight, and nothing helping us compensate lack of burst or raid utility. Where some classes can pull over 650k+ dps we usually pull around 250k with BL and if we are lucky on crits and RoO doesn't pop at pull. At least with RoO we had a little chance to go up from last to top 5 (with enough good procs over the fight) but here I'm really wondering... I'm not even sure 75% damage increase with 100% uptime could help as it is (wich is impossible anyway as we'll never be able to start fights with TeB stacks)

I'm seriously worried about my spot in raid progress for 5.4 =X

[Hinalover]

Sure, so at 22.2k mastery on gear, you'll have the same uptime as in live, with 25% less damage. Uptime today is, what, 50%? 40%? So it's a 10-12% nerf to overall damage.

At mastery below 22.2k, you'll have less uptime, where on live the buff would be smaller. You can do the math if you like, but it'll probably still land in the "10-15% nerf" range.

So "how serious this nerf is" is roughly a 10% dps loss. That's not insignificant, but it's also easily fixable by eg. a 10% buff to the RSK debuff.

I think you are not understanding what is going on, the 100% chance I mentioned, the 22,200 Mastery Rating before the Mastery buff, is the CHANCE that a second TeB stack is applied when you use up 4 Chi (think the T15 4-piece how it has a 10% chance to generate a second TeB). the 100% uptime is if you use your TeB stack right when the previous one expires; or in this case a 20% damage boost constantly. I would say, don't try to go for 100% uptime on the buff but instead either hold off until you have either 15 stacks, or slightly less than 15 stacks, but one of your buffs (Dancing Steel, trinkets, both) procs.

[Jayma]

I don't understand what blizzard is suggesting.
Were monks too strong before rune? Because taking rune out of the equation this is still a sizable nerf.

Did they put any effort into the math before they released this patch?

[Saltycracker]

I don't like the result of the change, but I wasn't fond of playing around Rune RPPM RNG anyways.

I guess it's harder to change a trinket, then change the mastery of class/spec. They will tune it, but maybe I'm echoing everyone in the thread that since they did such a bang up job in 5.2, we are all a little hesitant to have them go under the hood again and fix something that isn't broken. I'd rather they just leave it alone and let us keep the sideshow we have now. At least then they choose the devil they know instead of the devil they don't.

If people could please keep their feedback to a dull roar about how they are quitting and unsubbing and all of that, we will all be better off.

Math shows that if this went live it's a nerf for both RoRo users and those without, along with some tighter constraints on when we should be using one of our core abilities. Before everyone goes out for blood, realize that this is the PTR. Go play with a target dummy on the PTR and tell them how it feels.