Prot Nerfs

[nightfalls]

So my post is stupid because I have a different opinion? Rofl.

You didn't respond to my question, if you dislike the fact that some guilds give tanks loot priority no matter what, why not refuse to raid with said guild and find another?

[UnderworldSoup]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...3519?page=3#55 latest example of a blue post disagreeing with you ?

It was intended for haste to have some value, but out the gate they did not intend nor expect for haste to be the go to stat for Protection. That was the whole reason behind giving Sanctity of Battle to Protection - to give it an offensive stat to go for that would provide some defensive ability, like Druids and Monks have crit.

Their opinions changed over time as they witnessed how players geared and performed, and it was never nerfed because this gearing strategy encourages their active mitigation direction.

[arel00]

The really important thing here is we finally got an assurance they're monitoring Prot's mana situation in light of the SoI change. As long as that is fixed and we NEVER have to worry about mana for tanking (and I'd add, for the occasional Cleanse/Hand, since we're paladins and not just shields) then the rest is acceptable and not unforseen.
I'm fine with losing Battle Healer and even the GC change. I wasn't fine with having to go oom.

[Aceshigh]

I'm fine with losing Battle Healer and even the GC change. I wasn't fine with having to go oom.

Pretty much sums it up. BH should have been gone long ago, realistically, and the GC change makes boss tanking slightly less interesting and offtanking even shittier while making add tanking potentially broken. All in all the SoI was the big thing.

[Lethora]

lets be honest here in 10 man guilds No one wants a ret paladin cause they bring nothing to a group no utility and 99% of groups either has a prot or holy paladin. so most people raiding as ret are 25 man raiders. 25 man loot is LOL ok you wait 1 week for a piece of loot to drop again.

Not really. I'm raiding 25man and it's been like a month without any useful loot dropping for prot spec for me. That's including coin rolls. RNG is RNG.
P.S. We've yet to see a tanking neck from Twins. 15 kills total, normal+heroic combined.

[Deleted]

Not really. I'm raiding 25man and it's been like a month without any useful loot dropping for prot spec for me. That's including coin rolls. RNG is RNG.
P.S. We've yet to see a tanking neck from Twins. 15 kills total, normal+heroic combined.

doesnt first boss drop a haste/mastery (agi) neck?

EDIT: was thinking of haste/expertise (agi) neck from horridon - there's quite a few nice agi pieces on the early bosses that are much better itemised for us.

[Lierial]

The really important thing here is we finally got an assurance they're monitoring Prot's mana situation in light of the SoI change. As long as that is fixed and we NEVER have to worry about mana for tanking (and I'd add, for the occasional Cleanse/Hand, since we're paladins and not just shields) then the rest is acceptable and not unforseen.
I'm fine with losing Battle Healer and even the GC change. I wasn't fine with having to go oom.

the thing, they are lately do more and more they loose the sight what needs fixing and what not. It's total waste of developing time to change things that don't need changing + they have to stop forcing players to play how they think how they have to play, just so they can cut time for developing scripts (this is what is costing them lossing subs)

Add to that, the comment that Battlehealer glyph was supposed a holy paladin glyph, so that holy palas could be some sort of dps *lol*, just think back to 5.3 where they said, that the same glyph was intended to be a retri glyph, do they honestly believe the players have such bad sense of remembering ......

[TheWindWalker]

That being said, Lore's comment makes me hopeful that they'll remove dodge and parry completely from the game at some point.

As someone who played a bit of Brewmaster, I'd like it if they just took the Agi-tank model and put it on the Str-tanks. Dodge and Parry are just added by passives like always (say, 10%/10%) and any additional values were activated on demand. That way the tank can focus on keeping up a rotation but has access to quickly turn on avoidance when physical damage will be pouring in, and ignoring those cooldowns in favor of normal self-healing when magical damage is coming.

On of my favorite things about Paladin tanking while leveling was just how much I could heal myself actively without using long-CD cooldowns or running around looking for passively activated healing items.

[Lethora]

EDIT: was thinking of haste/expertise (agi) neck from horridon - there's quite a few nice agi pieces on the early bosses that are much better itemised for us.

Yes, I thought about it but that neck is wanted by pretty much every agility user (and we have bear tank, rogue, 2 ww monks, 3 hunters, 1 enh shaman). I'm not an asshole to take it before them. And I think it only dropped twice for us.
Anyway, we're going offtopic here.

[arel00]

Add to that, the comment that Battlehealer glyph was supposed a holy paladin glyph, so that holy palas could be some sort of dps *lol*, just think back to 5.3 where they said, that the same glyph was intended to be a retri glyph, do they honestly believe the players have such bad sense of remembering ......

I'm not naive enough to think they're not throwing excuses about Battle Healer, but it IS mandatory and completely out of scale now. Not that me or my raid are complaining, mind it, yet I was kind of waiting for the moment they'd nerf it. It was blatantly miscalculated.

[Deleted]

I am not sure I see the battle-healer change as flat out nerf, it is a situational nerf and a situational buff. The new glyph actually does more raid healing than the old one. The only thing that happened is that we have to chose between healing ourselves or healing the raid, we cant have both at the same time.

[arel00]

It is a nerf in the sense that it gives less total healing than before. But yes, it can be a substantial buff if we encounter a fight with low tank damage but heavy aoe on the raid.

[Deleted]

honestly i quite like the BH glyph change - at least it gives some choice now, and will be situationally good/bad depending on the encounter, which i believe is the whole point of the glyph system.

[zloitima]

It is actually hard to tell without actual testing. If it doesn't change the amount of healing, the numbers could go crazy.
Looking at some of my logs, 60-70% of Seal of Insight healing was an overheal. Now if most of the overheal will now be actual healing on other raid members, we might top the healing meters constantly.

[Keile]

I think Im the only one who is welcoming the Grand Crusader change.

After playing every incarnation of a prot pally, starting from Vanilla...it felt wrong to be using DPS gear as a tank. I rather like the push towards a more avoidance based tank again, as it should have been from the get-go. You are a tank...you should be blocking/avoiding blows while doing DPS that is less than the main dps of the group. This is especially true of paladins and warriors who are the cliche sword/board tanks of the game.
Basically what I'm getting at is it should have been like this from the beginning, rather than making it attractive for protadins to use DPS gear by making haste so damn powerful for them.


I still hold that DK should be the plate tank in DPS gear if ANY were designed for it (lore supports them doing so, whereas it does not support Paladins doing so. It can also suppot warrior tanks doing this as well, but they have become too engrained in their current state of being basically walking shieldwall meatshields), but still think that it's best to keep the plate tanks in traditional tank gear and let the monks/druids be the ones using the non-traditional (aka: dps) gear to tank with.

I do like tank stats. They just happen to be hit, expertise, haste, and mastery.

These are not tank stats. Tank stats are: Hit, Expertise, Dodge, Parry, Mastery (formerly known as block)

I really think Blizzard needs to bring back the days of Crushing Blows, where a tank NEEDED to get 102.4% combined Dodge/Parry/Block (ok it was more complex than that....it was Dodge(rounded up to nearest Whole)+Parry(Rounded up to nearest Whole)+Block(Rounded up to the Nearest Whole)+5(Hidden chance to be missed that all players have)+Defense% (no rounding, pretend the decimal doesnt exist), but not many people know that old formula anymore. Druids and Monks could get abilities to compensate, just like Druids had in the old days through a talent.) in order not to get 2 shot, that would instantly stop all the issues with tanks gearing as DPS.

Tanking has stopped feeling like tanking, and it has started feeling like being a DPS who can take more hits than the rest.....it's loosing its flavor over the years.

[Nairobi]

That's entirely your opinion, which you are entitled to, but I will just say that I (and the VAST majority of other tanks regardless of progression) hated how passive the previous tanking metagame was.

Gear up til 440def/540def/CTC cap, then AFK.

No thanks, I'd like to PLAY the game, please.

[Deleted]

I think Im the only one who is welcoming the Grand Crusader change

Yes, lets welcome the change that is gonna be completely utterly broken on certain fights, while barely noticeable on the regular fights. The change that is gonna cause a riptide of waves after waves of complaints against paladins being utterly OP and broken, causing further changes into the current state of paladin tanking that is the most involving and skill rewarding it has ever been.

This change opens up for paladins to do absolutely insane things, and on certain fights we are just gonna be beasts.

Even though, with the 'new' GC, it does not change that the effects of the actual dodge/parry stats are still shit. The only thing that changes is that they give us the ability to completely abuse some fights, which changes our rotation into 2 buttons (AS/GC). Yeah, that sounds fun. Add in Sacred Shield and we got 3 buttons to press for those aoe fights.

This change is one of the least interesting ones I have seen, it only serves to cause further rage against paladins, encourage boring and weird gameplay, i.e. pulling even trash mobs to bosses so you can sit and spam only AS the entire fight, while making our damage reduction and dps completely broken with 100% sotr uptime.

The fact is, you say you played since vanilla. Dodge and parry were never really desirable stats, they where just, the least shitty ones. Just check the golden days of CTC cap in Cata, reach that 102.4%, sure we wanted dodge and parry to reach the CTC cap, but if I could change all my dodge/parry into mastery for block, I would have done that in a blink of an eye, dodge/parry was simply not desirable, but it was what we were left with, since obviously not all pieces could have mastery/mastery on them.

[Dirdie]

I think Im the only one who is welcoming the Grand Crusader change.

After playing every incarnation of a prot pally, starting from Vanilla...it felt wrong to be using DPS gear as a tank. I rather like the push towards a more avoidance based tank again, as it should have been from the get-go. You are a tank...you should be blocking/avoiding blows while doing DPS that is less than the main dps of the group. This is especially true of paladins and warriors who are the cliche sword/board tanks of the game.
Basically what I'm getting at is it should have been like this from the beginning, rather than making it attractive for protadins to use DPS gear by making haste so damn powerful for them.


I still hold that DK should be the plate tank in DPS gear if ANY were designed for it (lore supports them doing so, whereas it does not support Paladins doing so. It can also suppot warrior tanks doing this as well, but they have become too engrained in their current state of being basically walking shieldwall meatshields), but still think that it's best to keep the plate tanks in traditional tank gear and let the monks/druids be the ones using the non-traditional (aka: dps) gear to tank with.




These are not tank stats. Tank stats are: Hit, Expertise, Dodge, Parry, Mastery (formerly known as block)

I really think Blizzard needs to bring back the days of Crushing Blows, where a tank NEEDED to get 102.4% combined Dodge/Parry/Block (ok it was more complex than that....it was Dodge(rounded up to nearest Whole)+Parry(Rounded up to nearest Whole)+Block(Rounded up to the Nearest Whole)+5(Hidden chance to be missed that all players have)+Defense% (no rounding, pretend the decimal doesnt exist), but not many people know that old formula anymore. Druids and Monks could get abilities to compensate, just like Druids had in the old days through a talent.) in order not to get 2 shot, that would instantly stop all the issues with tanks gearing as DPS.

Tanking has stopped feeling like tanking, and it has started feeling like being a DPS who can take more hits than the rest.....it's loosing its flavor over the years.

Please no, getting Defense capped was cool and all (sarcasm). Sure lore supports us dodge/blocking/parry, and im sure we will still do all those things. We just wont have those shitty stats on our gear. Witch i am very hopeful they will get rid of next xpac.

[Nairobi]

Yes, lets welcome the change that is gonna be completely utterly broken on certain fights, while barely noticeable on the regular fights. The change that is gonna cause a riptide of waves after waves of complaints against paladins being utterly OP and broken, causing further changes into the current state of paladin tanking that is the most involving and skill rewarding it has ever been.

This change opens up for paladins to do absolutely insane things, and on certain fights we are just gonna be beasts.

Yeah, when I saw that start to the post, I figured he was meaning it in terms of "I welcome the change because it's a huge fucking buff on add/exploitable fights". Then I kept reading...

Even though, with the 'new' GC, it does not change that the effects of the actual dodge/parry stats are still shit. The only thing that changes is that they give us the ability to completely abuse some fights, which changes our rotation into 2 buttons (AS/GC). Yeah, that sounds fun. Add in Sacred Shield and we got 3 buttons to press for those aoe fights.

This change is one of the least interesting ones I have seen, it only serves to cause further rage against paladins, encourage boring and weird gameplay, i.e. pulling even trash mobs to bosses so you can sit and spam only AS the entire fight, while making our damage reduction and dps completely broken with 100% sotr uptime.

Though, I DO wonder, once we reach 21250 and hit/exp hardcaps, picking up avoid/mastery gear may not be a bad thing. I know some folks (*cough*YOU*cough*) will still advocate crit, and that WILL be a viable strat for sure, but after capping the good stats, avoid/mastery could be a decent option as well, esp in 25m.

The fact is, you say you played since vanilla. Dodge and parry were never really desirable stats, they where just, the least shitty ones. Just check the golden days of CTC cap in Cata, reach that 102.4%, sure we wanted dodge and parry to reach the CTC cap, but if I could change all my dodge/parry into mastery for block, I would have done that in a blink of an eye, dodge/parry was simply not desirable, but it was what we were left with, since obviously not all pieces could have mastery/mastery on them.

Pretty much. Vanilla tank gear WAS tier gear, since all you could tank on was a warrior. There was no concept of hit/expertise, unless you counted Maladath or other +wpn items (which the smart ones of us used). There was no hit available, which played havoc on fights like 4horsemen, hence the addition of the set bonus on original Dreadnaught. Block value (OMG the OP Sapphiron trinket from Naxx40; RIP old friend!) was amazing, but was gutted/removed going into LK. All we HAD was +Def to stack to 440, and then dodge/parry/armor. And even then, additional +def was STILL better than D/P. BC wasn't much different, outside of the 540 cap, and the addition of more +armor items. D/P was still just the wallpaper; boring and bland, and was simply there...never desired. Hit became important, at least.

LK axed defense skill, but added in Mastery. Using a THRILLING combination of D/P/B, we shot for CTC cap and then stacked stam. Enthralling gameplay. Stand there and get hit til the boss dies. Wonder why there is a tank shortage? Not that things got better in Cata... In fact, it just got WORSE, since unhittable tanks weren't dying, so they had to ramp up damage so severely that it made non-block tanks a high liability. Well played, avoidance.

Finally, we get some semblance of tank parity in MoP with the abolition of CTC capping as a possibility. Granted, the parity is lacking in the DPS department, but this is precisely BECAUSE of avoidance. The 2 tanks (War/BDK) that are stuck without "proper" use of non-traditional secondary stats for AM usage are at a disadvantage because they are saddled with dodge and parry, causing DPS to suffer. This is attempting to be band-aided in 5.4, but it really won't do much to change the tank meta. So, now that we (as Paladins, anyway) finally have choices, a fun and engaging tank playstyle, and meaningful contriubtions to the group other than "get hit in the face for 8 minutes", people want to go back to the dark ages?

I'll never understand it...

[Deleted]

Though, I DO wonder, once we reach 21250 and hit/exp hardcaps, picking up avoid/mastery gear may not be a bad thing. I know some folks (*cough*YOU*cough*) will still advocate crit, and that WILL be a viable strat for sure, but after capping the good stats, avoid/mastery could be a decent option as well, esp in 25m.

To be fair, I am not certain I will advocate crit anymore. Seeing as the main reason of that was dodge/parry actually decreased your dps by allowing you took fewer alabaster shield procs, though now when that is nerfed and dodge/parry improved, I find it very likely going for dodge/parry is superior simply because they will provide a dps increase now rather than a decrease, aswell as a lot of holy power.

Will wait for things to go live before delving deeper into the matter, but as you say, going for dodge/parry after haste cap seems to be a likely option.

Should be noted though that is not because of the actual dodges and parries, only for the dps increase and HoPo regen increase, and of course abusing whatever fight possible.