United Troll Empire vs The Scourge

[Simulacrum]

Well lets be fair, the only reason we beat the lich king was due to the holy plotarmour we call the ashbringer. If the trolls had something of that calibre then ide say they would win.

We didn't really beat the lich king, though. He just sort of sat there not doing anything while we slowly made our way to him, then he just died. Sort of like deathwing.

If either of those two had actually been trying to win, then first the entire world would turn undead (he wouldn't even have to fight; he'd just kil all the trolls with diseases, or alternatively kill all their food if they were somehow immune to it), then deathwing would come along and blow it all up, or whatever his ultimate plan was, and that'd be that.

Makes for a boring narrative, though, I guess.

[Kaleredar]

The insinuation that Lich King would be at the front line of EVERY battle to res/enslave all dead trolls is ridiculous.

...the Lich King isn't the only guy in the scourge that can raise undead...

Dont forget the trolls are also well versed in mummification/spiritual possession,

Didn't seem to help them in Zul'drak or the eastern plaguelands.

as well as their golem-like constructs which essentially have no body to be raised from the dead.

They require the spirits of trolls to animate. And if those spirits belong to the scourge...

[derpkitteh]

We didn't really beat the lich king, though. He just sort of sat there not doing anything while we slowly made our way to him, then he just died. Sort of like deathwing.

If either of those two had actually been trying to win, then first the entire world would turn undead (he wouldn't even have to fight; he'd just kil all the trolls with diseases, or alternatively kill all their food if they were somehow immune to it), then deathwing would come along and blow it all up, or whatever his ultimate plan was, and that'd be that.

Makes for a boring narrative, though, I guess.

the lich king wasn't trying to win because he wanted us to be his best lieutenants. the moment he tried during the fight, we all died. only tirion survived because he wanted to shove it in tirion's face. he just didn't count on the light breaking him free and then frostmourne shattering.

[Winter]

...the Lich King isn't the only guy in the scourge that can raise undead...

Granted, but his Valkyr that could were limited in number.

Didn't seem to help them in Zul'drak or the eastern plaguelands.

True, but we are talking about the full might of the Troll Empire, not just those in Northrend. Thats one big empire.

They require the spirits of trolls to animate. And if those spirits belong to the scourge...

See reply to first point. Their spirits will be trapped if the Valkyr/LK is quick enough. If not, their spirits would be construct-destined pretty quick.

You also left out the part where i basically said if LK was around its game-over. AFAIK, he's the only one with mass-res powers. Unless we havent seen the full potential of the Valkyr?

[Florena]

Granted, but his Valkyr that could were limited in number.



True, but we are talking about the full might of the Troll Empire, not just those in Northrend. Thats one big empire.



See reply to first point. Their spirits will be trapped if the Valkyr/LK is quick enough. If not, their spirits would be construct-destined pretty quick.

You also left out the part where i basically said if LK was around its game-over. AFAIK, he's the only one with mass-res powers. Unless we havent seen the full potential of the Valkyr?

To an extent death knights and necromancers can raise the dead too, though not as powerful as the lich king himself can.

[Kaleredar]

Granted, but his Valkyr that could were limited in number.

Any run of the mill necromancer or death knight can raise undead. And the scourge is rife with them. "raising the dead" isn't some high-and-mighty, upper echelon scourge power. Hell, the plague passively raises people as undead.

True, but we are talking about the full might of the Troll Empire, not just those in Northrend. Thats one big empire.

Well, their knowledge of the spirits when confronted in the scourge didn't do jack shit to help them in the instances presented, so...

See reply to first point. Their spirits will be trapped if the Valkyr/LK is quick enough. If not, their spirits would be construct-destined pretty quick.

That requires a ritual. Death knights and necromancers pretty much just say "SOLDIERS ARISE, STAND AND FIGHT!"

You also left out the part where i basically said if LK was around its game-over. AFAIK, he's the only one with mass-res powers. Unless we havent seen the full potential of the Valkyr?

Death knights and necromancers can raise large numbers of undead too. See Salramm the Fleshcrafter, Heigan the unclean, Noth the plaguebringer, prince keleseth, Baron Rivendare, the Black Knight, Gluth, Stinky and Precious, and... every player death knight. And I'm sure I'm still missing any number of hum-drum NPCs that can raise one or more undead to fight by their side.

[Murderdoll]

Didn't seem to help them in Zul'drak or the eastern plaguelands.

Drakari =/= Zandalari. Far from it.

Trolls THEN and NOW are two completely different things.

Even the Zandalari of now are a mere shell of their true power.

[Nathreim]

We only won because we stopped fighting the Scourge on their terms skipped the bulk of the Scourge army and assaulted Icecrown Citadel itself. Had we tried to eliminate the entirety of the Scourge in stand up battles we would have lost.

[Kaleredar]

Drakari =/= Zandalari. Far from it.

Trolls THEN and NOW are two completely different things.

Yeah, but when what the Drakkari tried failed so utterly horribly, I don't think the Zandalari would have been able to fair all that much better. Spirit mojo is spirit mojo, and from what we saw, the Lich King's was vastly more powerful.

[foxHeart]

Well, they'd obviously lose seeing as they clearly don't have the human racial at their disposal.

[Deathpath]

I think every one is forgetting that the drakari where the most primitive and less advanced of the troll empire. And the fended off the scourge for a while until drakuru turned against them and made them loose a lot of ground. Also the upper parts of zuldrak are pretty much untouched by the scourge. Just the lower parts are taken and the almost middle parts are contested with a three way between the argent crusade, the scourge, and the drakari.

[Winter]

Any run of the mill necromancer or death knight can raise undead. And the scourge is rife with them. "raising the dead" isn't some high-and-mighty, upper echelon scourge power. Hell, the plague passively raises people as undead.



Well, their knowledge of the spirits when confronted in the scourge didn't do jack shit to help them in the instances presented, so...


That requires a ritual. Death knights and necromancers pretty much just say "SOLDIERS ARISE, STAND AND FIGHT!"



Death knights and necromancers can raise large numbers of undead too. See Salramm the Fleshcrafter, Heigan the unclean, Noth the plaguebringer, prince keleseth, Baron Rivendare, the Black Knight, Gluth, Stinky and Precious, and... every player death knight. And I'm sure I'm still missing any number of hum-drum NPCs that can raise one or more undead to fight by their side.

In a shocking twist on a forum, i acknowledge your points and actually agree with them after your explanations. Well done.

[Philosopino]

if you can actually kill him. Even if you do you still need to pass on the curse.

The infinite army I get, the Lich King being very powerful I agree, but why there always have to be a lich king? I don't get it. It's not like undead bites turn people into other undead like zombies.. Just kill every scourge necromancer while their leadership is broken, AOE the hell out of Icecrown like really half of those zombies can't fly, some can't even fit on boats, I wonder how the heck they could even get to Kalimdor with their hierarchies broken who would send them there and to how much effectiveness it would do. I think this is one of the cheapest way to close plot holes blizzard has ever made.

[Sandrox]

The old troll empire was split by the Night Elves a long time ago, the Scourge wouldnt have much trouble doing it either.

[xezar]

I dunno, some Loa are said to be extremely powerful and probably rival Nelf Ancients like Malorne and Cenarius. And Malorne was strong enough to go toe-to-toe with Archimonde as well. Yeah its basically MMA math, but considering a Loa like Hakkar was enough to be a threat to Azeroth to rally the Zalandari into action in vanilla, I wouldn't underestimate the top tier ones and not the weak ones like the Drakkari ones apparently.

So I guess it depends on how powerful you want to make the LK; considering a group of dreadlords were able to keep him in check until Arthas freed and merged with him, I would bet that some of the strongest Loa could probably go head to head with the LK and win. I mean, I consider the whole Tirion/Ashbringer stuff crap myself personally, a very poor deus ex machina given to a horrible character just to save our "asses" even though the LK was nearly dead anyways.

So overall, depends I guess. Scourge alone would eventually wipe out normal trolls from sheer attrition. Add in the intervention of Loas and the LK, then you can complicate it and probably make a decent case for either side to win.

[Murderdoll]

The old troll empire was split by the Night Elves a long time ago, the Scourge wouldnt have much trouble doing it either.

They defeated the Gurubashi and the Amani, not the Zandalari.

Also consider that once upon a time, the Night Elves probably couldve wiped the floor with the Lich King and his Scourge.

[Sandrox]

They defeated the Gurubashi and the Amani, not the Zandalari.

Also consider that once upon a time, the Night Elves probably couldve wiped the floor with the Lich King and his Scourge.

I thought the Night Elves split up the Troll empire, before they became different tribes like the Zandalari and Amani.

[Kaleredar]

They defeated the Gurubashi and the Amani, not the Zandalari.

Also consider that once upon a time, the Night Elves probably couldve wiped the floor with the Lich King and his Scourge.

The Zandalari WERE "the trolls" before they split up. When they split, they became the separate tribes.

And how could the night elves defeat the scourge? Keep in mind the High Elves seemed to be pretty highfalutin and powerful up until the scourge mopped the floor with them... and like I said, Arthas was just cruising through, too.

- - - Updated - - -

I dunno, some Loa are said to be extremely powerful and probably rival Nelf Ancients like Malorne and Cenarius. And Malorne was strong enough to go toe-to-toe with Archimonde as well.

Malorne got his neck snapped. Cenarius was killed by a crazed orc.

Yeah its basically MMA math, but considering a Loa like Hakkar was enough to be a threat to Azeroth to rally the Zalandari into action in vanilla, I wouldn't underestimate the top tier ones and not the weak ones like the Drakkari ones apparently.

And the scourge has its share of powerhouses as well.

So I guess it depends on how powerful you want to make the LK; considering a group of dreadlords were able to keep him in check until Arthas freed and merged with him,

The lich king's (ner'zhul's) power wasn't in his "physical abilities," it was in his mental command. Arthas and Frostmourne added the combat prowess.

I would bet that some of the strongest Loa could probably go head to head with the LK and win. I mean, I consider the whole Tirion/Ashbringer stuff crap myself personally, a very poor deus ex machina given to a horrible character just to save our "asses" even though the LK was nearly dead anyways.

It's lore either way.

So overall, depends I guess. Scourge alone would eventually wipe out normal trolls from sheer attrition. Add in the intervention of Loas and the LK, then you can complicate it and probably make a decent case for either side to win.

The Loa can be destroyed, or at least put out of commission, though.

[Flaks]

NOTHING the Scourge has can compare to the power of Malorne/Cenarius or Demonic Grom/Mannoroth.

And full power Hakkar is definitely up there with full power Lich King.

[Belisaurio]

I thought the Night Elves split up the Troll empire, before they became different tribes like the Gurubashi and Amani.

No army won against them until they started their civil wars and become a divided empires/tribes.
And remember, the Farraki trolls could rise their warriors too with mumifications, the Gurubashi were the most powerful loa-warriors, with some vodoo tricks like inmortality (march of the vodoo, RPG book//WC3 skills), Amani were the most powerful empire If you look only in strength of an army, Drakkari...don't know, I saw them only in WC3 campaign and WotLK and they were a little fail, so I can't talk about them.

With Scourge in full power and Troll empires with full power too...hard to answer who will win.