The Murozond Paradox.

[Deleted]

So i've been thinking, how exactly Murozond (Nozdormu's corrupted form) came to be?

Since Nozdormu lost his powers to travel in time and affect it BEFORE he became Murozond (the Age of Mortals is upon us) , how did Murozond ever exist?

This whole Time travel stuff is Tauren excrements!

[Noorri]

The "End Time" dungeon is an alternate timeline where Deathwing wins and destroys Azeroth. If Deathwing won Nozdormu didn't use all his power to power the Dragon Soul to kill Deathwing and would still have his power.

While there are a bazillion things that doesn't make sense in WoW lore, that one actually does make sense. Kinda...

[Thimagryn]

The fact that the whole infinite dragonflight crisis was concluded in a dungeon scenario with little explanation, I'm pretty sure they're trying their best to avoid explaining the paradox. The whole 'why did we go back to Hyjal' during TBC was not explained either, esp since the Infinites had absolutely no presence there.

[Deleted]

Metzen failed again. Just look at worgen, their story was twisted around so much that nobody actually knows what they are. Cursed humans by the Scythe of Elune ? Cursed humans infected by worgen from another planet as described in the Book of Ur quest that you did in vanilla ? No one fucking knows.

[Nexsa]

In the end of DS he tied all time lines to that moment, then lost his powers, so his opposite self would still exist up until that point. We did go to the future in End Time and kill him, but he would still exist in current time and before. I don't think he can change the future now, since he's only now present in the current and past?

[Deleted]

The "End Time" dungeon is a alternate timeline where Deathwing wins and destroys Azeroth. If Deathwing won Nozdormu didn't use all his power to power the Dragon Soul to kill Deathwing and would still have his power.

While there are a bazillion things that doesn't make sense in WoW lore, that one actually does make sense. Kinda...

Yeah but its not the real timeline. If Nozdormu didn't became Murozond in the real timeline, how could Murozond ever have existed to screw with other timelines ?

[britishbubba]

I would assume it's a multi-thread time scenario... Murozond happened in the time thread where DW wasn't defeated. But in the time thread where DW was defeated, Murozond didn't happen.

Since the End time dungeons happened before dragon soul happened, we clipped into the time line that *was* going to happen. But now that one won't happen.

fuck time travel.

[StationaryHawk]

There are many different alternate timelines. Additionally, Murozond technically existed "outside of time," which is why when we reversed time using the hourglass, he was not affected.

Metzen failed again. Just look at worgen, their story was twisted around so much that nobody actually knows what they are. Cursed humans by the Scythe of Elune ? Cursed humans infected by worgen from another planet as described in the Book of Ur quest that you did in vanilla ? No one fucking knows.

The whole "worgen from another planet" thing was retconned. The original worgen are now druids who took the shape of them with the help of the Scythe of Elune, and the Gilnean worgen were cursed by them.

[Deleted]

Timey wimey. You know the rest.

- - - Updated - - -

I would assume it's a multi-thread time scenario... Murozond happened in the time thread where DW wasn't defeated. But in the time thread where DW was defeated, Murozond didn't happen.

Since the End time dungeons happened before dragon soul happened, we clipped into the time line that *was* going to happen. But now that one won't happen.

fuck time travel.

This seems reasonable. Especially the fuck time travel bit.

[Deleted]

I would assume it's a multi-thread time scenario... Murozond happened in the time thread where DW wasn't defeated. But in the time thread where DW was defeated, Murozond didn't happen.

Since the End time dungeons happened before dragon soul happened, we clipped into the time line that *was* going to happen. But now that one won't happen.

fuck time travel.

But.... Terry pratchet told me that History is like a pair of pants. You come in trough the top, and then there are two diffrent outcomes. one of them you come trough, and this practically excludes the other one from the equation, as you never went thru there.

[Soulless Cynic]

So i've been thinking, how exactly Murozond (Nozdormu's corrupted form) came to be?

Since Nozdormu lost his powers to travel in time and affect it BEFORE he became Murozond (the Age of Mortals is upon us) , how did Murozond ever exist?

This whole Time travel stuff is Tauren excrements!

1. Murozond is from an alternate timeline where Nozdormu didn't lose his powers.
2. You can't apply a linear concept of time to a being who exists outside of time. Time is relative. How we perceive time and how he perceives it are very different things. Our first meeting with Nozdormu could be his twentieth, and our twentieth meeting with him could be his first. Just...try not to think about it.

[chazus]

Yep. Multiple timelines, multiple possibilities. They travelled to a single, possible future in order to try and figure out what led to that, in an effort to prevent it. Once information was gained, DW was destroyed, and all possible timelines were tied to that one point, so that all timelines converge at that point. DW ceases to exist in all timelines after that, preventing him from being a possibility anywhere.

My question is... Is there only one possible timeline now, since they were 'tied to that point', or do an infinite number of possibilities still exist, using that tied point as the 'origin'

[Grocalis]

Not really sure what the issue is here...

For one, when Nozdormu lost his Aspect powers, that does not mean he loses his time powers. All bronze dragons have a latent connection to the time-ways, which is why they don't need Nozdormu around all the time babysitting them. The non-Aspect Nozdormu can travel through time just as well as any other Bronze Dragon.

Murazond comes from the future far beyond the End Time. He underwent an event that was supposedly so catastrophic that he lost all hope, and decided that any past, even one like "End Time", would be better then whatever future he came from. Nozdormu even says following the events of End Time that his death was forseen, and that it all happened like the Titan's envisioned it, lamenting that someday, somewhere in the future, he WILL go mad and become Murazond. That event is destined to occur because he have yet to see the real future that created Murazond.

[Smokinya]

1. Murozond is from an alternate timeline where Nozdormu didn't lose his powers.
2. You can't apply a linear concept of time to a being who exists outside of time. Time is relative. How we perceive time and how he perceives it are very different things. Our first meeting with Nozdormu could be his twentieth, and our twentieth meeting with him could be his first. Just...try not to think about it.

Very well said listen to this guy. Or read about The Doctor and Riversong thing from Doctor Whoand it'll all make sense I promise!

[Deleted]

1. Murozond is from an alternate timeline where Nozdormu didn't lose his powers.
2. You can't apply a linear concept of time to a being who exists outside of time. Time is relative. How we perceive time and how he perceives it are very different things. Our first meeting with Nozdormu could be his twentieth, and our twentieth meeting with him could be his first. Just...try not to think about it.

If he exists outside of time tough...dosent that mean he knows what the next five expansions will be?
Why didnt he tell us anything?

Actually what i meant is, If murozond existed in an alternate reality, shouldnt be able to stay only in his reality where he exists and not invade other realities aswell? I mean, time travel and alternate realities are two diffrent things.

[Aquamonkey]

Nozdormu says: "At last it has come to pass. The moment of my demise. The loop is closed. My future self will cause no more harm. Still, in time, I will... fall to madness. And you, heroes... will vanquish me. The cycle will repeat. So it goes."

He's going to turn into Murozond anyway, doesn't matter if he lost his time-travel powers. Because reasons...

[chazus]

If he exists outside of time tough...dosent that mean he knows what the next five expansions will be?
Why didnt he tell us anything?

He isn't omniscient. Being able to access everything doesn't mean he -has- accessed everything. Especially when there is another equally (and possibly more powerful) version of himself going around, screwing things up behind his back.

Can he know what the next 5 expansions will be? Yep. At least, he could, up until now. With the loss of his powers, and the violent change of time paths, his knowledge of the future is effectively useless.

Actually what i meant is, If murozond existed in an alternate reality, shouldnt be able to stay only in his reality where he exists and not invade other realities aswell? I mean, time travel and alternate realities are two diffrent things.

Again, tying them all together to one point, and then severing his power, prevents him from doing so.

Time travel and alternate realities are not necessarily two different things. I'd almost go to say they are -not- two different things at all. TECHNICALLY, time travel doesn't exist. Moving to different points on a linear path of one possibility does, which is different from time travel.

[Deleted]

Nozdormu says: "At last it has come to pass. The moment of my demise. The loop is closed. My future self will cause no more harm. Still, in time, I will... fall to madness. And you, heroes... will vanquish me. The cycle will repeat. So it goes."

He's going to turn into Murozond anyway, doesn't matter if he lost his time-travel powers. Because reasons...

Oh sith! Maybe an Old god corrupts him and thats why he looks like all Black and white and stuff!
I KNEW he looked kinda like a sha!

[Soulless Cynic]

If he exists outside of time tough...dosent that mean he knows what the next five expansions will be?
Why didnt he tell us anything?

That's easy. Either he felt he didn't need to, or he did and it just hasn't happened for us yet.

Actually what i meant is, If murozond existed in an alternate reality, shouldnt be able to stay only in his reality where he exists and not invade other realities aswell? I mean, time travel and alternate realities are two diffrent things.

I think you're confusing alternate realities with alternate timelines. Murozond exists in a timeline where Deathwing won. You're trying to apply Nozdormu's loss of powers to him, but that occurred in a timeline where Deathwing lost.

[Therougetitan]

Dungeon journal: "Now living outside of time, Murozond was once the great Dragon Aspect Nozdormu the Timeless One. After the titans showed him his own death, the tormented Nozdormu was tricked by the Old Gods into trying to subvert his mortality. As a result, Nozdormu shattered the timeways and created the infinite dragonflight... jeopardizing the very future of Azeroth."

Underlined important part. Nozdormu was immortal before Dragon Soul, as were the other aspects. Now they are mortal. This is the timeline he'll go crazy, we just don't know when.