How I think LFR should be changed

[Airwaves]

the absolute only thing I changed was adding the "PS" bit. now you're throwing out insults and accusations. what exactly did I do to set you off?

And if I'm such a normal mode hero then it would only make sense for me to be spending that VP on VP gear no? to expect the people who want their normal gear to stay ahead of by capping valor every week is a bit ridiculous

No because you would have already had your VP gear before item upgrades came back in. And yes they should be capping there vp each week to upgrade everything to help there team out. If they don't then they aren't a team player and should be removed from the raid team and replaced by someone who wants to help there team out.

I used to be GM and RL of a guild and if someone like you wasn't willing to put the tiny amount of time it takes to cap vp each week to help the team out then i would have replaced you right away with someone who is willing to be a team player.

[MoanaLisa]

And if I'm such a normal mode hero then it would only make sense for me to be spending that VP on VP gear no? to expect the people who want their normal gear to stay ahead of by capping valor every week is a bit ridiculous

You can't have it both ways though. If you have to run LFR to improve your gear then it seems to me you have to spend the valor to improve your gear. You can't say you're forced to run LFR for what it gives and then blow off upgrading your stuff from normals. It doesn't make any sense. Unless you're making what really is an untrue case that "LFR is mandatory but valor upgrades are optional" in which case you can expect to be receiving a great deal of criticism.

[Frogged]

You never see hardcore raiders whine about LFR

I think LFR is incredibly damaging to the game. That's off-topic though.

OT: Have we heard definitively one way or the other if item upgrades will remain in the game for 5.4? If so, then the new LFR would still be worth every Normal raider's time. If not, it's about a 50/50 change it would be. Either way, there's a large chance that a significant portion of Normal raiders will have to run LFR next patch. Especially if upgrades stay in.

[Brewslii]

Looking for raid has been a thorn in much of the populations side for some time now. While it is understood that there is still a large amount of players who have found it useful and a great improvement to their monthly subscriptions the fallout it has caused in the higher difficulties has been significant. The gear is often such an upgrade from the previous tier that most non-heroic raiders feel forced to do LFR in order to maximize their characters potential. It is an option whether to do it or not, but by doing so it somewhat spoils the feeling of progression once you jump back into your appropriate raid difficulty. So you have the choice between experiencing the raid how it was meant to be or obtaining welfare gear through means that ruin that experience.

So the question I ask is this; why is LFR released in the same period of time as the actual raid?

We already see that it is gated when released, in attempt to let some of the normal/heroic raiders have some time of prestige or to get more than a month out of the subscribers who return to see the new raid and leave. If it is in fact the latter, wouldn't it make more sense to not release LFR at the same time as the actual raid?

Now this is how it should be changed; LFR should be released in the minor content patches (5.1, 5.3, 5.5) and provide no achievement.

Doing this will give the players who progress on normal/heroic a well deserved experience of the newly released raid without having LFR taint it. There is nothing rewarding about killing a boss in LFR. I realize there's still a huge difference between killing a boss in LFR and killing a boss in normal/heroic, but the fact is the feeling of progressing through the actual raid is lost. You now know what trash will be like, what traps there will be, what the rooms will look like, the dialogue and lore. I'm sure if you only raid for the progression and could care less about the surrounding raid around you these feelings won't matter as much to you. But to someone who enjoyed raids like Ulduar and Karazahn because of the uniqueness and surprises it held this is everything.

And this is where the argument "if you don't want it to be ruined, don't do it" comes in. I'm sure I'm not the only person in the world who wants to do everything in their power to help their guild out as much as they can. This includes learning the fights, getting the welfare gear, and killing bosses that drop legendary quest items if you haven't killed it that week already. If you're progressing slower than LFR is being released you feel almost obliged to do LFR or else you're letting your team down. I raid lead, I don't force people to do LFR for the same reason I don't want to, but I do it because I want whats best for the raid out of myself. There's some people who take me up on that lack pushing, but there are other who do because they are in the same boat as me or just don't care about the raid and just want to play with us. Unfortunately we fell behind this tier and my first kill to Lei Shen was in LFR. The fight is pretty much the same, but it felt like a disappointment. Being thrown in with a bunch of random players who you never met and killing a boss you could do one handed, it just felt cheap and undeserving, especially since it's the last boss of the raid.

Think about it, they blow their entire load in the first month of the new patches release when they release LFR in the same patch. I'd be curious to see just how much the subscription drop off is after the final wing of LFR is released, but I know 3 people off the top of my head who either quit shortly after or continue to log in once or twice a week just to get the rest of their gear. Now these people all have something in common, they don't have much time and LFR is a way for them to see the game progress in a far less time consuming matter. I get that this is something they look forward to, but if they're that uninvested in the game wouldn't having them wait 2 months to cash in on them be an equally financially viable option for Blizzard?

I know that this will never change and I'm pretty much doomed to repeat my spoiled experience until I eventually put my foot down at the sake of me lacking as a leader, but it was worth a rant just to see if anyone else feels like this is a problem for them too. Thanks for reading the wall of text and let me know if you think this is stupid or I'm just not seeing something right.

tl;dr release LFR a patch after the raid for it comes out

PS: if you're going to post after only looking at the tl;dr, try not to assume that I hate LFR. I like what it's there to do, I just don't want to be forced into doing it

You do realise most raiders run PTR to learn fights first right? when live hits they already know what the trash is and what the bosses are. This isnt a solution it's another annoying thread that's been done a thousand times over, go away.

[Rushro]

You do realise most raiders run PTR to learn fights first right? when live hits they already know what the trash is and what the bosses are. This isnt a solution it's another annoying thread that's been done a thousand times over, go away.

You almost cut me with your edgy reply. Most of those raiders who learn fights on PTR are learning the heroic mechanics and are generally going for realm/region/world firsts. If I have the option to not download a multi gb file so that I can get a feel for the fight myself, I'll take that option.

You can't have it both ways though. If you have to run LFR to improve your gear then it seems to me you have to spend the valor to improve your gear. You can't say you're forced to run LFR for what it gives and then blow off upgrading your stuff from normals. It doesn't make any sense. Unless you're making what really is an untrue case that "LFR is mandatory but valor upgrades are optional" in which case you can expect to be receiving a great deal of criticism.

I'm sorry, what part of item upgrading also gives me a chance for secrets of the emperor or titan runestones to drop? And let's not forget that the item upgrader wasn't even included back into the game until 5.3

[Brewslii]

You almost cut me with your edgy reply. Most of those raiders who learn fights on PTR are learning the heroic mechanics and are generally going for realm/region/world firsts. If I have the option to not download a multi gb file so that I can get a feel for the fight myself, I'll take that option.

So...People on PTR aren't getting to feel the fight for themselves is what you are saying? i see.

[Tomana]

Can people just use some logic? Every day, in this forum and some others, people are complaining about LFR more than anything else. The criticisms about WoW from others games/industries are focusing inf LFR and how easy is wow (and the pay-method too). So something happens with LFR, just don't ignore that.

That something is called whining from a minority (because you know, even all the population of MMO champion does not represent a significant fraction of WoW population). Blizzard already caved in to such whining once and it gaves us early Cata, which resulted in major sub losses.

So, peopel trying to figure "solutions" only looking their experience ingame are the first path, and giving a feedback is always useful. If Blizzard don't read any feedback, interview, fan base, etc...they are the only company than don't do that.

Those are not "solutions", those are idiocies not taking into account economy, finance, psychology etc... The only thing they take into account is the epeen of the whiner.

And yes, Blizzard can remove/change/transform or create new features if they want, they done a lot before.

But unlike some people complaining on forums, they are not totally clueless.

- - - Updated - - -

You expect everyone to have spent 8000 VP to upgrade every piece of 522 gear they have just to have a 2 ilevel advantage over LFR?

I think you should read GC's twitter, he clearly stated that Valor will be ONLY for upgrading items in 5.4, and alternative gearing will be done through something else (possibly the timeless isle). This is all subject to change, of course.

[Rushro]

So...People on PTR aren't getting to feel the fight for themselves is what you are saying? i see.

If I have the option to not download a multi gb file so that I can get a feel for the fight myself, I'll take that option.

I bolded it for you this time.

[Deleted]

You're not forced into doing it. The gear from the previous tier is more than enough to start in the new tier, and especially with the new tier, where the new lfr gives the same ilvl as the previous tier. If you're "forced" to do lfr you're not clearing the content on normal and if you're not clearing it on normal you should be happy you get a chance to catch up for the new tier. Also, if you need quest items from the new raid and are not making enough progress the lfr CAN give you a shot at completing the quest a bit faster. LFR is fine the way it is, the ppl in there will still be assholes no matter what tier you're doing and it will only be a good benefit if you're not raiding normals. Give it a rest already.

[Brewslii]

I bolded it for you this time.

You do, it's called LFR.
Look im not saying you can't have your own opinion, I'm just saying yours is wrong.

[Terridon]

Every raiders will be full valor upgraded by the time SoO is out.

Didn't think about them removing the upgrades in 5.4, so that's a valid point.
I'm happy about that then. Gives me no reason at all to run it.

[Rushro]

I think you should read GC's twitter, he clearly stated that Valor will be ONLY for upgrading items in 5.4, and alternative gearing will be done through something else (possibly the timeless isle). This is all subject to change, of course.

That's a pretty interesting change, I'll have to look into the timeless isle more too. But the upgrading items was only involved under the assumption that I'd be needed to upgrade my ToT normal gear in order to be head of SoO LFR gear.

[ComputerNerd]

Stop trying to fix what is not broken and look at the real problem.
Traditional raiding is broken as hell due to the people in it.
It no longer remains attractive due to the drama and excessive and artificially raised requirements that comes from people being in charge and able to dictate if you get in or not.

Less flexible than ever regarding schedules created by players, while the game offers more flexible choices.
If players struggle to meet your demands, when the game offers an alternative without the strings then it is obvious where they will go.

Another "fix" which is simply another anti-lfr crusade masked as something else.

LFR has done a lot more for the raiding community, and not just in the obvious ways.
It has also highlighted a long-standing and horrible mentality that to be honest stinks and is harming the raiding community more than anything blizzard have done.

[Rushro]

You do, it's called LFR.
Look im not saying you can't have your own opinion, I'm just saying yours is wrong.

Yeah, and if you read my OP you'll see why that's another reason why some people are forced into doing it.

[Brewslii]

Yeah, and if you read my OP you'll see why that's another reason why some people are forced into doing it.

And by your exact logic, you are forced into normal raids to clear heroic so they should also be removed.
Put your epeen away and get over it. Go voice your opinion in another LFR thread instead of creating one, Nobody cares, Lfr is here and it's not going away nor will it be changed. All you are managing to get across is that you are apart of the decline in WoW community.

[Rushro]

Still..what keeps subbed people from bringing their ideas directly on the Blizzard forum? Why risk it to get drowned here? Any thread can end up quickly on page 4 and then oblivion within 4 hours.

Yes, feedback is useful and read. Blizzard repeats that like a broken record. But people do not just reply in the way you quoted by ridicule. Here are actual arguments against OPs suggestions - but I suppose he spend so much time writing it that he now cannot back down.

I've already agreed that another patch could be too long, but I still stand by delaying it and releasing it all at once.

And by your exact logic, you are forced into normal raids to clear heroic so they should also be removed.
Put your epeen away and get over it. Go voice your opinion in another LFR thread instead of creating one, Nobody cares, Lfr is here and it's not going away nor will it be changed. All you are managing to get across is that you are apart of the decline in WoW community.

Except normal and heroic share the same lockout.

[Omgarsh]

I am a casual player, I never claimed to be anything else. I killed Lei Shen on normal 2 weeks after it was released on LFR, nothing spectacular. I raid less than 6 hours a week. But that doesn't mean I should be doing LFR and I don't believe LFR is synonymous with casuals or vice versa. As for the ilevel drop, but there is still the legendary quest chain. If there are no drops to have to worry about like the Sigils, Secrets or Runestones then it will be a good fix. I just didn't want the people who do LFR to feel like they aren't progressing with their characters too



Sorry, welfare gear has been a term I've heard used and used myself since TBC. It's been used to describe gear that's pretty much handed out and I thought more people used the term.

Yes, I know. It first showed up in TBC. But that doesn't mean it isn't a really stupid term that automatically makes most arguments about gearing/progress stupid.

[Coombs68]

How I think LFR should be changed - It should be removed.
The people i see in there every fucking time i try it because i don't have a guild and not really like pve all i see is green geared non enchanted non gemmed scrubs.

[Brewslii]

I've already agreed that another patch could be too long, but I still stand by delaying it and releasing it all at once.



Except normal and heroic share the same lockout.

Well gee whiz all the more reason to get rid of.

[Tomana]

The people i see in there every fucking time i try it because i don't have a guild and not really like pve all i see is green geared non enchanted non gemmed scrubs.

How can you get green-geared people in an LFR when max level for greens is 437? Oh wait, I know, you just made this up.