"Players rarely argue for less convenience." - Ghostcrawler

[oplawlz]

Look man, they made a ham-fisted attempt to make the game less casual in Cata and since they failed utterly they are extremely unlikely to try again.

They will ignore the fact that they over tuned the content they should have left moderately easy (heroic dungeons) for the casual and lfd crowd to gear up in, creating an unnecessary barrier from the content which was actually done just right for the first two tiers (raids). They have taken from this instead the message that everyone wants everything to be easy, and sub loss is totally nothing they can avoid, because lolold.

Since very few players outside the Blizzard echo chamber are still around to comment on things which would benefit the game, this is pretty much a permanent spiral now. As others have said, the long time players who might have made a majority for people wanting a game that offers some challenge have voted with their wallets, and are, after the complete conversion to facebook app status, unlikely to return.

[Mad_Murdock]

I've thought about this before and i might have to disagree with you. If everything was perfect there would be no conflict. People thrive on conflict. Conflict makes things interesting. Challenging views make you think critically and that is a very important feature to have in life.

Conflict makes things interesting ? We need people being Murdered, Raped, Beaten because of prejudice, else the world would be a boring place! No, I would disgaree 100%, we don't need conflict to have interesting lives. You'll probably start splitting hairs and say that me liking Vanilla and you liking Chocolate ice cream is a"form of conflict" We can be different and have different opinions, without the need for prejudice and conflict. People who thrive on conflict, have issues. Let's not make them the gold standard of humanity.

[Frogged]

You're not calling me out, you're defending an attitude, not a race, ethnicity or religion.

And circular arguments aren't fun. Special snowflakes blame "casuals" and whatnot all the time for all their ills (and wrongfully too) so, in the end, I'm the one calling you out?

Actually, I don't blame casuals for my ills. That's another prejudiced assumption you're making. I'm also not defending anger, hate, or people who spew bullshit. I'm defending normal people from being labeled and disregarded based on a prejudice. I can see you're not really out to have a rational discussion but rather to show your dislike for the OP. Carry on, I'll leave you to your fun.

[Sierra85]

Conflict makes things interesting ? We need people being Murdered, Raped, Beaten because of prejudice, else the world would be a boring place! No, I would disgaree 100%, we don't need conflict to have interesting lives. You'll probably start splitting hairs and say that me like Vanilla and you like Chocolate ice cream is a"form of conflict" We can be different and have different opinions, without the need for conflict. People who thrive on conflict, have issues. Let's not make them the gold standard of humanity.

if everything was perfect, and we all agreed on everything... wouldn't that be boring? if everyone had the same perspective, we'd be super dull!

[Deleted]

Actually, I don't blame casuals for my ills. That's another prejudiced assumption you're making. I'm also not defending anger, hate, or people who spew bullshit. I'm defending normal people from being labeled and disregarded based on a prejudice. I can see you're not really out to have a rational discussion but rather to show your dislike for the OP. Carry on, I'll leave you to your fun.

Everything about the OP's post fits within the most common of "Special Snowflake" definitions. And no, the OP didn't put up much of a rational argument, nor did most contributors to the thread. Me included.

[Mad_Murdock]

if everything was perfect, and we all agreed on everything... wouldn't that be boring? if everyone had the same perspective, we'd be super dull!

Personally I find that one the most silliest argument ever!. We have no idea how it would be because we never had it. It's much cooler to act like constant conflict is awesome!

Not to mention, I didn't say we had to all be exact clones of each other. You can still like different things then me and we can respect each other's differences without the need for conflict. We don't need prejudices against people to have different taste and beliefs.

[Grubjuice]

This has to be the most infuriating tweet I have ever seen from Ghostcrawler

Either the community managers are doing an atrocious job, or the designers are pretending complaints don't exist

I mean, players have been complaining about WoW being more and more casual-friendly since WoTLK, complaining about its accessibility and convenience. This story really begins with the implementation of LFD towards the end of WOTLK, then flying mounts in cataclysm, and finally LFR. Dozens of LFR threads are made weekly, how come players rarely argue for less convenience?

Elitists should not even be considered to have a say.

[PaladinBash]

Casualisation is a wonderful thing and has greatly improved the game so far. It stands to reason that expanding on it will make it even better in the future. The game has constantly gotten better since Wrath and it's ironic and amusing that the people that whine about it are the very people who benefited from it. Most of them never raided before Wrath (or even played before it) and I remember when people raged and moaned about ICC's stacking buff and how it was going to flood the game with filthy casuals. It's that new generation of raiders that got into raiding then and soon after when it was made easy in Cata that hate LFR because they've never been 'better' than someone before in the game. They're still not, of course, but like to think they are and so want to take away things from people.

LFR is the way forward. Kudos for Blizzard for not listening to whiny 'hardcore' raiders that are themselves not really even hardcore raiders at all. Even if they are, it doesn't matter what they think. GC is exactly right in this. That's not fanboyism, that's support of him giving me what I want consistently for a long period of time with casualisation. I hope he stays true to it and keeps building on it in the future. You 'hardcore' raiders have your content, everyone else has theirs. If anything, it's your content that should be scaled back and limited or just opened up to the rest of us. That's something more people would want but Blizzard won't do it just yet. Oh well, in time :P

[mvaliz]

So apparently people on the forums only account for a small minority of the playerbase? Well then why on earth did blizz listen to the forum complainers in 4.1 and decide to nerf all the heroics...

Because they didn't listen to the forums... they listened to their subscriptions falling perpetually for over a year. THAT is when they actually started listening to ANY feedback and made knee-jerk changes.

It's the same reason Xbox One did a 180 on their horrific DRM policies several months later. It wasn't the feedback that did it... it was the MASSIVE lop-sided presales and the underselling of Xbone that caused them to immediately make the changes.

[Jessicka]

They were trying out something new. They don't make every decision based on data alone. Sometimes they make gambles that people will like a change that they just don't have data for.

They weren't trying something new, they listened to that vocal minority that demands harder content but always finds excuses not to pursue it.

[brunnor]

A small vocal minority has been complaining. The vast majority has not.

A small vocal minority is all they have to work off of. The only player feedback they get it from the forums. The only other thing they have a chance at gathering feedback from is the account canceling question thing which are optional. I know I picked the dumbest option possible when I closed my other two accounts. So taking random questionnaire things is iffy at best.

The more dedicated players are the ones who find their way to forums to post, why is it such a bad thing to follow their advise? There are about as many people who like the game that post as hate it. It shows that there are issues with parts of the game for some but not others. Just because there aren't 8 million posts saying something, doesn't mean that it isn't the way it is or that everything is perfectly fine.

The vast majority of WoW has never made it's way to a forum let alone posted on one. So everyone posting in any thread is a vocal minority, it just helps your point to think otherwise.

[Deleted]

A small vocal minority has been complaining. The vast majority has not.

Have u got evidence that its the minority and not the majority?

In my very long Wow forum use the subject with the most complaint threads ever in the history of Wow has been LFR. No other issue in Wow has ever generated such a massive amount of forum pages.

Now, at the very least that shows LFR isnt functioning as well as it could be ingame and it needs some fixing/rebalancing. At the very worst its a total disaster.

What that doesnt tell us is that everthings fine and dandy.

[The Kao]

This has to be the most infuriating tweet I have ever seen from Ghostcrawler

But why, more like GC rarely has a bright moment, but when he does people find it instantly infuriating. How convenient.

I mean, players have been complaining about WoW being more and more casual-friendly since WoTLK, complaining about its accessibility and convenience. This story really begins with the implementation of LFD towards the end of WOTLK, then flying mounts in cataclysm, and finally LFR. Dozens of LFR threads are made weekly, how come players rarely argue for less convenience?

Aside from forum users being just the vocal minority, most of what players "demand" in threads like that is pure lunacy that would put an end to WoW sooner than anything Blizzard themselves could come up with. The thing is, the majority of community suggestions lack substance and thought, can't really blame GC for stating a fact.

[Kujako]

The world would be a better place if people weren't prejudiced.

Yea, I hate those prejudiced people. They should be kept away from the rest of us. And don't even get me started on the xenophobes, those people worry me.

[Noorri]

Have u got evidence that its the minority and not the majority?

In my very long Wow forum use the subject with the most complaint threads ever in the history of Wow has been LFR. No other issue in Wow has ever generated such a massive amount of forum pages.

Now, at the very least that shows LFR isnt functioning as well as it could be ingame and it needs some fixing/rebalancing. At the very worst its a total disaster.

What that doesnt tell us is that everthings fine and dandy.

The simple evidence is that the number of posts that are in all those threads combined doesn't even add up to 1% of the population of WoW. What is said on forums are fairly unrelated to what is going on in the game, since such a small minority is even using the forums.

[brunnor]

This can't be stated enough. People need to realize that Blizzard (and just about every online game company) have armies of statisticians and business analysts to pour through the data they collect. And they collect an obscene amount of data. I would argue that WoW, as the largest and most successful MMO over the last 'decade', probably has the best number crunchers than any other game.

I can guarantee that they have developed, altered, and fixed many things in the game purely from numerical feedback many, many more times than by actually reading someone's complaints. And as much as I hate it, they have likely determined that their rapid evolution of the cash shop is going to rake it in even more.

There's nothing they do that would purposefully hurt their revenue. Every major change is analyzed and projected so that they know relatively safely what is going to happen. This is not chance, this is not random. People are very predictable using various mathematical trends and formulas.

Their "number crunchers" are horrible then. They have lost 30% of the total subs in ~3 1/2 years. You can't seriously believe that in those 3 1/2 years someone hasn't said, "Hey we were doing well in TBC/Wrath, maybe we should try that style again?" It is said every 10 minutes on the forums and yet, we have seen NOTHING close to either one of those. How long does it have to go bleeding subs before these people give it a try again? What has to happen to them before they are willing to change it back? What's the worst that can happen at this stage, another mil or two down in 3 months? We'll see what this next Q report brings but I assume it's going to be that bad. Since 1.3 million left with a brand new instance out... I can't see it going well for this instance on the back end.

[Deleted]

The simple evidence is that the number of posts that are in all those threads combined doesn't even add up to 1% of the population of WoW. What is said on forums are fairly unrelated to what is going on in the game, since such a small minority is even using the forums.

By your logic that means that no problem is worthy of being fixed unless the majority of players in Wow post omn the forums... do u really expect 8 million people to post on the forums?

The issue of dead and dying realm populations has been a massive issue... but the amount of players effected is small. I mean, they are on DEAD realms ffs. There arent enough of them to even post... so that means there is no problem right? lol

Or i could argue that LFR has generated more forum pages than any other issue.. so that means that every single issue ever posted must by conclusion have even less forum posts about them. And that means that those issues are even more untrue right?

Dude your logic sucks.

[Totle]

People are not really complaining about LFR.

You'll see a thread complaining about it, and then for the next 20 pages, you'll see people flaming the OP and telling him/her to get over it.

[Normie]

Their "number crunchers" are horrible then. They have lost 30% of the total subs in ~3 1/2 years. You can't seriously believe that in those 3 1/2 years someone hasn't said, "Hey we were doing well in TBC/Wrath, maybe we should try that style again?" It is said every 10 minutes on the forums and yet, we have seen NOTHING close to either one of those. How long does it have to go bleeding subs before these people give it a try again? What has to happen to them before they are willing to change it back? What's the worst that can happen at this stage, another mil or two down in 3 months? We'll see what this next Q report brings but I assume it's going to be that bad. Since 1.3 million left with a brand new instance out... I can't see it going well for this instance on the back end.

Change the game back to what? How?

In what way were TBC and Wrath similar that made them popular? None in particular except that they were early expansions. They were "new stuff" for a still relatively new game.

You also have to remember (as has been pointed out above) that WoW's subscriber base turns over relatively frequently. While there are certainly many players who have been with the game since Vanilla, there are many, many more that have been playing for 6-18 months.

- - - Updated - - -

Please don't take offense to this, as I intend no offense, but have you ever taken a statistics course? 1% of 8 million would be an amazingly huge sample in which to draw data from. Very few studies even come close to utilizing that many people. Now, the real debate is whether or not that sample is truly representative of the population. Do forum posters have different characteristics and desires than non-forum posters?

It's a super duper safe assumption that there is an enormous selection bias in the world of vocal forum posters.

[Sodia]

Their "number crunchers" are horrible then. They have lost 30% of the total subs in ~3 1/2 years. You can't seriously believe that in those 3 1/2 years someone hasn't said, "Hey we were doing well in TBC/Wrath, maybe we should try that style again?" It is said every 10 minutes on the forums and yet, we have seen NOTHING close to either one of those. How long does it have to go bleeding subs before these people give it a try again? What has to happen to them before they are willing to change it back? What's the worst that can happen at this stage, another mil or two down in 3 months? We'll see what this next Q report brings but I assume it's going to be that bad. Since 1.3 million left with a brand new instance out... I can't see it going well for this instance on the back end.

LOL did you read your own post byfore you post it :P Dude to your information Mop is exacly whot TBC and Wrath was and even more ... show me 1 point that was in oo so gr8 tbc/wrath that is not here ?? Endles Grinding and simple but hard TBC riding -chek Overhelming instanc eazines from wrath - chek So whot was so gr8 in TBC/Wrath that i mis here?? hmmmmmm cant remember or meaby just meaby youre one of thous forum trolls that just complein about everything coz you like it ?