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  1. #1141
    The whole balance thing is so stupid imo. I would love it if one of the factions was considerably inferior for an entire expansion, it would allow for much more interesting storylines. Right now, everything feels the same. Same number of cities, pretty much same forces, same number of races, and nobody will ever gain the upper hand due to gameplay reasons. As an Alliance player, I would LOVE to play some sort of a rebelion faction - let the horde destroy SW and the other cities, make it a war that the horde wins and Alliance are surviving in hiding and little villages. The possibilites for interesting quest chains would have been endless. Horde quest chains to find the remianings of the Alliance and destroy them, and Alliance quests to get resources and sabotage horde bases here and there to buy some time. Let the power shift between the two factions over time with actual in-game results to the quests, I'd love to see that.

    Instead, what Blizz has made is making the Alliance look silly. MoP was supposed to be all about the war, but where was the war in the game? I kept looking for it. The Ally first quest of the expansion looked so promising, so war-like (not sure about horde), but then it was all Panda, Mogu, Mogus, Klaxxi, more Mogu, trolls, Mogu, and some Mogu. Patch 5.1 showed bits of the war, but very little of it. I understand its tough to display a full scale war in gameplay, but something? Meh.

    Anyway, I just hope Varian's there when Garrosh dies. This has been due since the Ulduar patch trailer.
    Last edited by Blachshma; 2013-07-28 at 10:08 AM.

  2. #1142
    You think Vol'jin will just stand there with his pants down? He'll just allow Varian to walk up and to pick and choose what he wants?
    The Alliance weren't in it to finish the Horde or to even gain ground on them, they were there to kill our warchief and let the remaining Horde cut eachother to bits over who retakes the throne.

    Vol'jin has already got an agreement from the Alliance to not betray the Horde at the last moment, and I'd like to think Varian wants to stay true to his word. Besides, a good leader always plans for every possibility. I imagine he's already got an escape route out of Orgrimmar if things turn nasty with the Alliance... And Sylvanas on standby to do her thing if need be.


    slime

  3. #1143
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Except Baine warned Jaina so she could evacuate...
    and then he went and supported garrosh on his attack, so i fail to see how that absolves him of everything
    if he really gave a fuck about the murder of alliance people he would have told Garrosh to go fuck himself sooner, but he didn't because he doesn't
    Tirion was removed from leadership of the town he governed, by showing mercy to a horde. That doesnt mean he leaves the faction
    if someone throws you out of a faction you are by definition not part of that faction anymore
    These are alliance characters
    apart from Bolvar, no, not at all

  4. #1144
    Quote Originally Posted by 7seti View Post
    I'm not sure I believe that. The scenario we ended up with is an absolute turd both in gameplay and lore. How could something that matched the book be worse?
    The gameplay I was fine with. The problem was the story. Unless you read Tides of War, you have no idea:

    1. That Northwatch Hold and that other alliance base were curbstomped before Theramore. (Fort Triumph was it? I forget.)
    2. Why the horde have the focusing Iris, and why Garrosh attacked Theramore.
    3. The extent of the alliance casualties and the fact that several named npcs had come to defend the city. Including Rhonin, Marcus Jonathan, that naaru guy who gave the blood elf girl her shattered sun tabard, etc.
    4. Why and how Jaina became leader of the Kirin Tor.
    5. That it was all a part of Garrosh's larger plan to take all of Kalimdor.

    The gameplay itself, while not stellar, I could deal with. But blizz really dropped the bomb ball with this one by giving us zero context. Even on horde side you don't know much about it.

  5. #1145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rielthas View Post
    Alliance coming out "stronger" does not imply "much stronger" or "invincible".
    No. It doesn't. Being able to defeat the Horde within another year or so and still emerge strong enough to face Wrathions BL prophecy does tend to imply that they are a fair bit stronger. As does the various comments and leaks from the game. That the Horde can be seen as requiring Varians agreement to select a new Warchief alone is damning.

    Once Garrosh is dead, the Horde will be quite happy to let the Alliance leave Orgrimarr peacefully. However, if the Alliance then turned on the entire Horde and tried to conquer or take back lands, do you think the Horde would just lay down and let them have it? No, there would be more conflict, more fighting, and more bloodshed.
    And the Alliance will win. And they'd crush the Horde. And secure their future. And their lands. And ensure security for their people. All against an enemy who refused to restore their lands when given the chance to end the fight without the Alliance requiring a formal surrender.

    The Horde will not feel like they "owe" the Alliance anything just because they killed a common enemy together
    Then why expect the Alliance not to feel the same rather than press home their advantage and take back the lands stolen by the Horde?

    and decides to get while the getting is good, and escape with the military advantage that they gain from killing the Warchief of the Horde.
    What good is a military advantage if you don't use it? Varian is apparently in a position right now to get those lands back. He has the military advantage. Why should he back off? And what kind of Warchief will refuse to give them back? The kind who Varian must crush.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-07-28 at 03:55 PM.

  6. #1146
    Merely a Setback Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    The gameplay I was fine with. The problem was the story. Unless you read Tides of War, you have no idea:

    1. That Northwatch Hold and that other alliance base were curbstomped before Theramore. (Fort Triumph was it? I forget.)
    2. Why the horde have the focusing Iris, and why Garrosh attacked Theramore.
    3. The extent of the alliance casualties and the fact that several named npcs had come to defend the city. Including Rhonin, Marcus Jonathan, that naaru guy who gave the blood elf girl her shattered sun tabard, etc.
    4. Why and how Jaina became leader of the Kirin Tor.
    5. That it was all a part of Garrosh's larger plan to take all of Kalimdor.

    The gameplay itself, while not stellar, I could deal with. But blizz really dropped the bomb ball with this one by giving us zero context. Even on horde side you don't know much about it.
    People who did the scenario have been asking for context for what happened here. Those who read the book have had to explain it to them the full story.

    I don't care about there excuses, Christie Golden did a great job with this story, she even made me weep at little at the death of Kinndy, and Jaina's reaction to it. Btw, Jaina's reaction to Kinndy's death is perhaps the most realistic and powerful moments in any of the warcraft books, on just how absolute despair took Jaina.
    And.. they didn't even fucking try to show this in the game. Thats deplorable.
    #boycottchina

  7. #1147
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    And the Alliance will win. And they'd crush the Horde. And secure their future. And their lands. And ensure security for their people.
    That is a rather big assumption, if the Alliance wins, why should they remain united? The Alliance might crumble the moment the different interests of the races clash with one another, today's friend could be tomorrow's enemy.

  8. #1148
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    People who did the scenario have been asking for context for what happened here. Those who read the book have had to explain it to them the full story.

    I don't care about there excuses, Christie Golden did a great job with this story, she even made me weep at little at the death of Kinndy, and Jaina's reaction to it. Btw, Jaina's reaction to Kinndy's death is perhaps the most realistic and powerful moments in any of the warcraft books, on just how absolute despair took Jaina.
    And.. they didn't even fucking try to show this in the game. Thats deplorable.
    Yeah, the Theramore event would have been a thousand times better if they'd set it up a little. They didn't need to show us everything, or introduce book only characters like Kinndy, but a quest starting in SW where you learn that the Horde is matching on Theramore and that the Alliance is bringing in reinforcements would have been good. Show in game that Rhonin and the other named characters were there. Expand upon the destruction cutscene to show Rhonin pulling to bomb to the tower and pushing Jaina out, do some lipservice to her becoming the head of the Kirin Tor.

    Instead, nothing. There have been issues with book lore not being explained or shown enough in game for a long time but ToW strikes me as the most egregious example.

  9. #1149
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Btw, Jaina's reaction to Kinndy's death is perhaps the most realistic and powerful moments in any of the warcraft books, on just how absolute despair took Jaina.
    And.. they didn't even fucking try to show this in the game. Thats deplorable.
    If Kinndy was a blood elf girl, I'd bet you money we'd get to, at the very LEAST, chat up her father in Dalarn about the death of his kid.
    Since her father is currently just hanging out in dalaran right now, and doesn't even seem aware that his kid is dead.
    That's why ally players are annoyed when people say "well, you guys took Dalaran" We Don't get to SEE the new Dalaran. It's the Dalaran from "three years ago, when arthas was still sitting on the frozen throne"
    Every. Single. Alliance "Win" Is not represented IN GAME.
    In lore, the horde should be pushed out of Ashenvale up to the kodo camp. That lake house should be phased back into NE hands after you let the furblogs free. Meastera's post should be phased to not be on FIRE, since you utterly destroy the horde siege engines there.
    Westfall should be phased to no longer be on fire after you finish H deadmines.
    Cata was rushed to where they scrapped the alliance intro to twilight highlands, where we're supposed to learn about Benedictus's betrayal.
    They slapped the Horde version of the red drake line onto alliance players, where the drakes are REALLY pissed at us for for no reason. As if we had joined up with the orcs who repeatedly forced their mom to have sex while they watched and beat off and afterwards took her kids to be warmounts.

    It's not that we're mad about losing, we're mad that they don't give the same time to OUR side of the quest-lines as they do to Horde side quests.
    The darkspear rebellion was a slap in the face to alliance players. One scenario where we go back to kill trolls that haven't been a problem since you were level ten, to give a little depth to one third of a faction leader. When horde get TWO lore heavy ones where they get to see and be part of something that's actually relevant to the storyline. We should have gotten a scenario like the horde version of theremore, where we DO something to earn the respect of the darkspear and they grudgingly accept our help in killing more orcs.
    Waving the "Horde side sucked in Vanilla" flag doesn't make what they are doing now acceptable. It shouldn't excuse them making the same mistake to the other side. If you KNOW how it feels to be the shafted side, why are you reveling in it happening again?

  10. #1150
    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    I've never seen a single Alliance complaint about the attack on Theramore. That's potentially very interesting and adds dynamic to the story and the game. Even if Theramore fell and was occupied it would still exist, and it would have been taken honourably.

    What they complain about is the city being completely annihilated along with several lore characters, and there was nothing they could do about it. They never even got to see it happen!
    Pretty much this. I mostly play Alliance, and I don't really care that Theramore is gone. I can talk to Zidormi to revert it back to quest or just visit, if I so wish. It wasn't presented well to the Alliance at all. I'm a lore fan, but it bugged me that pieces of the story were missing from the get-go on my side. Besides, the area could be used for a new city that could be better in the future.
    3 hints to surviving MMO-C forums:
    1.) If you have an opinion, someone will say that it is wrong
    2.) If you have a source, there will be people who refuse to believe it
    3.) If you use logic, it will be largely ignored
    btw: Spires of Arak = Arakkoa.

  11. #1151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    No. It doesn't. Being able to defeat the Horde within another year or so and still emerge strong enough to face Wrathions BL prophecy does tend to imply that they are a fair bit stronger. As does the various comments and leaks from the game. That the Horde can be seen as requiring Varians agreement to select a new Warchief alone is damning.

    And the Alliance will win. And they'd crush the Horde. And secure their future. And their lands. And ensure security for their people. All against an enemy who refused to restore their lands when given the chance to end the fight without the Alliance requiring a formal surrender.
    You missed the point of Wrathion's plan. It's not so that one side crushes the other side and is still strong enough to face the BL. It's that one side controls/subjugates the other side so that they have a united conglomerate force for the impending threat. Wrathion specifically says the Horde "CAVES". That means they surrender/submit to the Alliance, not that the Alliance crushes them.

  12. #1152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post

    I've never seen a single Alliance complaint about the attack on Theramore. That's potentially very interesting and adds dynamic to the story and the game. Even if Theramore fell and was occupied it would still exist, and it would have been taken honourably.

    What they complain about is the city being completely annihilated along with several lore characters, and there was nothing they could do about it. They never even got to see it happen!
    I do then agree with you on this fully. Not being alliance fan doesn't mean I don't appreciate some good lore around them, since its all part of wow's lore spectrum. And tides of war was a very good book, giving depth to Jaina and whats happening around her, her relationship with some characters, and the impact it brought to her upon there deaths and the destruction of her city and home.

    If it was on the horde side, say if Varian took a bomb to alterac and destroyed alterac valley, killing all the frostwolves, I would expect the same kind of depth and story in the game myself, I'd be outright demanding it to the point of wanting to punch the devs for not doing so.

    So in that I really am disappointed in how the devs handled this, and now there really weak, flimsy excuse of 'we need to focus more on gameplay then story'... THEY DID A WHOLE ZONE IN ULDUM TO A FUCKING INDIANA JONES PARODY BUT CAN'T GET THERE OWN REAL LORE DOWN, WTF ARE THEY DOING?.
    #boycottchina

  13. #1153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    and then he went and supported garrosh on his attack, so i fail to see how that absolves him of everything
    if he really gave a fuck about the murder of alliance people he would have told Garrosh to go fuck himself sooner, but he didn't because he doesn't
    Which wouldn't have led to any deaths if Jaina did as Baine suggested and GTFO. He didn't want anyone to die on either side: "Even so, the warning had been given to prevent a massacre of the Alliance, not so that the Alliance would have a chance to massacre the Horde."

    How naive you are to think that they could just walk away. Garrosh has a fucking army right there with him. You think he's going to just let Baine take his Tauren and leave? Every time Baine voiced his objections, Garrosh threatened to kill Baine: “If you do not wish to share your father’s fate, I would advise you to watch what you say!” It's also why Vol'jin kept mostly silent: “Dat why I stay quiet. Gotta tink about my people.”

    Even Jaina understood that Baine couldn't just up and leave. Baine can't even fully join the Rebellion in 5.3 because he has to get his people out of Orgrimmar first.
    “He despises these actions, but to protect his people, Baine has agreed that the tauren will continue to serve the Horde as they are needed. He wishes me to emphasize that at times, this obligation brings him little joy.”
    ...
    “My high chieftain remembers the aid you gave him and asked me to warn you. He has no wish to see you caught unawares.”
    Jaina was overwhelmed at the gesture. “Your high chieftain,” she said, her heart full, “is a truly honorable tauren. I am proud to be so highly regarded by him. I thank him for this timely warning. Please tell him it will help save innocent lives.”
    “He regrets that a warning is all he can give you, my lady. And… he asks you to please take Fearbreaker, and return it to the one who so
    kindly gifted it to him. Baine feels that it is no longer his to keep.”
    Jaina nodded, though quick tears stung her eyes. She had hoped that that night would be the beginning of healing, of understanding, but it was not to be. Baine was telling her, in his typically gentle but firm fashion, that their friendship only went so far—he was not, and would never become, a member of the Alliance. He would stand and fight with the Horde. She understood. She was fully aware of how vulnerable the tauren people would be if they stood against Garrosh now, and she had no wish to see them come to harm.


    It's the same shit with the Forsaken and Gilneas. They didn't want to attack, but Garrosh threatened to burn UC to the ground if they refused. He had a full army right there with him to do it too.

    Look what happened to the Trolls. They walked out of Org and Garrosh sent Kor'kron to subjugate them on their islands. Then launches a full attack on Sen'jin Village.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-28 at 06:10 PM.

  14. #1154
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    THEY DID A WHOLE ZONE IN ULDUM TO A FUCKING INDIANA JONES PARODY BUT CAN'T GET THERE OWN REAL LORE DOWN, WTF ARE THEY DOING?.
    Two of our leveling zones for alliance (redridge and I think blasted lands?) Are about 60% Rambo movie knockoffs. Literally. The entire tail end (About 3/4s) of the Redridge line is us stuck in a shitty (Literally, one of the quests has us smearing fox crap and leaves on ourselves) Rambo knockoff. I think it's around the same level you guys are working for the general who get's kicked off the cliff for killing Taruen.

    Cata was the shoddiest thing blizzard has put out, but only for half of it's player base. The horde side is polished and good, the alliance side is sickening in it's 1-60 and TH slapdash work. To have a dev literally pull an opening out of his ass, and have his author avator look you dead in the eye in first person mode and say "Like you could do better" When you've SEEN the horde intro, should make anyone rage.
    Last edited by Thorngrove; 2013-07-28 at 06:13 PM.

  15. #1155
    I don't think there is much to debate anymore. The Story of the Last Two Expansions is very badly written. So badly written that Blizzard is now at half his playerbase. Yes one of the reasons half the player base stopped playing warcraft is because of it's shitty story. I had a lot of friends who stopped playing because simply they didn't liked how they presented the Alliance.

  16. #1156
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Did you honestly expect them to revamp old zones AGAIN?

    It was very clear from the beginning that we just eliminate the Kor'kron threat and after that it'll be business as usual.



    We did gain something. We exchanged a "raawr human smash!" Gladiator with a proper King worth respecting... and gained a "whackjob soon to be raidboss" Archmage on the side.
    Realistically, they're going to *HAVE* to revamp the old zones before too long. They made an incredibly short-sighted decision to make the old zones revolve around Deathwing and the events of Cataclysm, which immediately put a time-stamp on all of their work. To be honest, it struck me as a pretty amateur mistake from the very moment the showed off the new world, unless they went into it knowing that they would have to revamp it again later.

    I suspect they probably learn towards the latter. Since we're clearly going to be fighting the Legion again at some point (presumably the next expansion), I wouldn't be surprised if they revamped the world again to include more Legion-borne threats.

    In any case, this is indeed a completely ridiculous outcome. They could resolve these issues so very easily, if they wanted. Give Gilneas back to the Alliance (leave the Battleground as a skirmish on the outskirts, removed from Lore), change Ashenvale to be a recovering province (merely requires changing the quests up a bit, perhaps sending Horde players elsewhere for questing), or any number of other concessions that could be made.

    I'll be honest, I've never been one to make snap-judgement on "Oh, Blizzard loves the Horde soooooo much", but this just feels really, really weak.

  17. #1157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    That is a rather big assumption, if the Alliance wins, why should they remain united? The Alliance might crumble the moment the different interests of the races clash with one another, today's friend could be tomorrow's enemy.
    They might. But the Horde would still be crushed. And Varian simply walking away **IS** going to create issues because the NElfs, Lordaeranians, Worgen etc are going to want their lands back, are going to want peace, are going to want security and so on. They aren't going to be too happy with Varian simply ignoring their interests.

    Varians needs a VERY good reason to simply walk away. The warm glow of moral superiority isn't good enough. Nor, sadly, would the excuse of ending the bloodshed. The Horde still occupies Alliance lands and if the new Warchief won't give them up, he'll be the type of Warchief Varian and the Alliance will need to fight anyway.

    Put simply - after all the Alliance has gone through, them simply gifting their lands to the Horde is a ridiculous ending. Any of their lands. So for this story to have any meaningful ending, the Alliance either need a VERY good reason to do so or they need to get their lands back. And not just a token....all of their lands. If the war is ending with the Alliance stronger, they cannot just walk away.

    Anything less simply the Alliance being portrayed as suckers, losers, idiots and other less polite words. That's bad for Alliance players, that's bad for horde players, that's even bad for the game. I can't be the only one to see friends leave and give the Alliance story as one reason - they just don't feel as involved in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    Realistically, they're going to *HAVE* to revamp the old zones before too long. They made an incredibly short-sighted decision to make the old zones revolve around Deathwing and the events of Cataclysm, which immediately put a time-stamp on all of their work. To be honest, it struck me as a pretty amateur mistake from the very moment the showed off the new world, unless they went into it knowing that they would have to revamp it again later.

    I suspect they probably learn towards the latter. Since we're clearly going to be fighting the Legion again at some point (presumably the next expansion), I wouldn't be surprised if they revamped the world again to include more Legion-borne threats.
    No. If they were going to go down the unlikely road towards yet another revamp, what they need to do is set everything at Year 0. Vanilla. Have everything work through as it did before, but upgrade and streamline the experience as necessary. At L60, have the world event at the Portal. At L70, have the Zombie invasion. At L80. Have the Elemental invasion. L80-L85 will have the post-Cata questlines and stories. At 85, the fall of Theramore. L85-L90 will be Pandaria.

    Simply make everything fit together in a storyline that makes sense and keeps the stories in Vanilla that were good. Unfortunately, fixing what went wrong with Cata would require too much work and offer too little return to justify the investment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    You missed the point of Wrathion's plan. It's not so that one side crushes the other side and is still strong enough to face the BL. It's that one side controls/subjugates the other side so that they have a united conglomerate force for the impending threat. Wrathion specifically says the Horde "CAVES". That means they surrender/submit to the Alliance, not that the Alliance crushes them.
    I fail to see the meaningful difference as far as this debate is concerned.

    The Horde ends up losing. And they lose because after the SoO, the Alliance is meaningfully stronger. To the point they take TB and the Hordes "caves". As in surrenders.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-07-28 at 07:13 PM.

  18. #1158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    I fail to see the meaningful difference as far as this debate is concerned.

    The Horde ends up losing. And they lose because after the SoO, the Alliance is meaningfully stronger. To the point they take TB and the Hordes "caves". As in surrenders.
    There is a significant difference between crushing your opponent and having them give up. Crushing implies they so weak they can't fight back. Giving up means they still have strength to fight, the just don't have the will to continue. Wrathion's plans require that the losing side still be strong enough to contribute in the fight against the Legion. So when Wrathion talks about the Alliance winning the war, he's not talking about the Horde being crushed.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-28 at 07:30 PM.

  19. #1159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    There is a significant difference between crushing your opponent and having them give up. Crushing implies they so weak they can't fight back. Giving up means they still have strength to fight, the just don't have the will to continue. Wrathion's plans require that the losing side still be strong enough to contribute in the fight against the Legion. So when Wrathion talks about the Alliance winning the war, he's not talking about the Horde being crushed.
    The quote "Will the Alliance be content with overthrowing a despot, or will they crush the Horde at one of the most vulnerable points in its history?" is why the term "crush" has started to be used. You're right - it might be hyperbole, but it still seems to agree with the information we've been given about the relative strength and power of the factions after SoO. Its also easier and quicker to type and gets across the meaning I want even if it isn't 100% accurate - the Alliance appears to be stronger to the point that their victory doesn't appear to be subjet to reasonable doubt. That might not be the case when 5.4 comes out, but for now it'll do.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-07-28 at 08:15 PM.

  20. #1160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Wrathion's plans require that the losing side still be strong enough to contribute in the fight against the Legion. So when Wrathion talks about the Alliance winning the war, he's not talking about the Horde being crushed.
    Really? Seems to me Wrathion wanted the Alliance to win outright.
    So that all of Azeroth would be united under one banner, one faction.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

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