[spoiler] Ghostcrawler confirms ridiculous Alliance outcome in 5.4

[Dreknar20]

Why did Varian not press his march against the rest of the Horde? I can give you 2 Reasons why he is not pressing it against The Tauren and the Blood Elves.

Also adding Varian is supposed to be a High King and meant to be on the moral high ground or whatever.........
But just because Varian wished it does not mean the rest of the Alliance also wish so........
Such as Admiral Rogers or even Jaina, since a blue post mentioned its an "interesting Varian/Jaina dynamic

[kendro1200]

Look on the bright side at least you got Dalaran back and a former Aspect is now a member of the Alliance.

On paper yes, in-game, NOOOOOOOOOOOPE. Depending on who becomes Warchief we may also lose Dalaran on paper. Jaina has a personal issue with Garrosh's Horde. Without Garrosh behind the seat she will probably take the Kirin Tor back to neutral.

Tides of War (for a story that was supposed to be pretty Alliance centric, Tides of War was 45% Horde and 55% Alliance face time, I was sorta disappointed) and MoP just show that the Blizzard story and dev departments have little to no ability to focus and stay on task. The pieces for a really good Alliance story can be hunted out and skimmed from what has been put into the game, but for the most part it got brushed over because everyone got super excited by making Game of Thrones WoW edition through the Horde's MoP story. Why worry about promises to half of the subscribers when you can procrastinate and write a Game of Thrones fanfic in your own game?
This isn't Horde-bias whining, it's just pointing out the facts. 5.3 Horde got Chen Stormstout back flip kicking Orc Grunts into the air while Thrall roasts the Grunts with lightning bolts. Alliance got a robot cat clicking pieces of paper and a letter in the mail from Varian that says, "Good job". What if the Alliance had gotten a quest that had them disguised as Trolls and going through Orgrimmar screaming that Vol'jin is alive, Garrosh sucks, setting fire to Kor'kron supplies and garrisons, riling up Tauren, and bribing Goblins (essentially creating the open rebellion in the first place)? Then Horde got to bring a letter from Vol'jin to Thrall and Baine that says, "Come help us, Garrosh needs to go"? I'm pretty sure Horde players would feel pretty cheated.
Now in 5.4 The Horde gets Alliance assistance in taking out Garrosh and pays zero compensation to the Alliance for everything Garrosh did as Warchief (the Horde technically didn't suffer under Garrosh's rule, it actually flourished minus the political squabbles). The Alliance gets literally nothing out of this rebellion, because as it stands, Garrosh's 'True Horde' wouldn't have been able to take over Kalimdor, let alone Azeroth, because it would have just been a few sha-empowered Orcs against literally the entire world.

do you remember how it was Garrosh that caused that and the rest of the horde were shocked by what he did, and now we are killing him and his orcs who caused it.

You talk like you think the horde overall wanted to use the mana bomb on theramore, but it was Garrosh alone.

And don't go there about how "Garrosh is the warchief so he represents all the hordes action" bullcrap, unless you want me to pull the Arthas card out of this.

Garrosh wasn't alone in his decision to use the Mana Bomb. Many members of the Horde were more upset about that a) Even though he had the Mana Bomb Garrosh still had Horde soldiers run in and attack Theramore, and basically were slaughtered pointlessly
b) The Mana Bomb was viewed as a coward's weapon. Destroy an entire city from the safety of very far away.

That still doesn't change that apart from Baine, some Tauren, the Blood Elves, Vol'jin and a handful of the elder Orcs were perfectly fine with going to Theramore and slaughtering the entire city. The outcome of Theramore wasn't what members of the Horde objected to, it was the means. They were perfectly fine with enslaved lava giants, kraken, and other weapons of mass destruction, but being left in the dark on the mana bomb was an issue.

Also, seriously, pull the Arthas card. Arthas stopped being an Alliance character the moment he killed his father (Literally, he was Scourge at that point, technically before that point, but killing his father was the point of no return). So up until that point he killed a plague infested city, burned ships to prevent his men from deserting him, and killed random mercenaries. I completely own the fact that Arthas killed a plague infested city, I probably would have done the same. The choices were kill them or let the plague spread. In comparison to Garrosh though, Garrosh is still apart of the Horde, up until 5.4 most members of the Horde will not kill him on sight. Garrosh hunts down super weapons not to protect his people, but to actively butcher anyone who does not submit to him. Up until Garrosh's lackey attempted to kill Vol'jin every single member of the Horde did not object enough about what Garrosh is doing to prevent the Horde from doing it. When someone is about to shoot another person, and you have the opportunity to stop them, and chose not to interfere, you're just as guilty as the one that pulls the trigger. You chose to let it happen. Yes, under that reasoning Jaina and Uther are just as guilty over Stratholme as Arthas, as they are, but what happened at Stratholme was literally the least worst decision that could be made. The cure for the undeath plague didn't even come into lore until TBC, lore-wise almost a decade after Stratholme. The people of Stratholme were already dead, the entire city was a time bomb.

[Deleted]

Did you remember Theramore being a Military fortress supplying the Alliance with a direct way to attack the barrens?

Does it matter? The horde one-upped the alliance there, the alliance tough didn't one-up the horde after that.
Jaina took dalaran as neutral city. Untill the horde one-upped her again and stole the divine bell under her nose, then she finally did something about it.

[Talen]

What were people expecting? Alliance conquers Org, slaughters its inhabitants, defeats the Horde (or it splinters), and the entire game is OVER?

No. People were hoping the Alliance would be treated with the same level of respect and attention as the Horde.

EJL

[Trassk]

Does it matter? The horde one-upped the alliance there, the alliance tough didn't one-up the horde after that.
Jaina took dalaran as neutral city. Untill the horde one-upped her again and stole the divine bell under her nose, then she finally did something about it.

So apparently Jaina and Vereesa capturing and killing blood elves and driving any presence of the horde from dalaran isn't 'getting one up' on the horde to you.

This is why its hard to take some of you alliance fans seriously, you don't acknowledge any wrong doing from your own side, and just look for any scapegoat for it. The horde does some bad shit (which the bombing of theramore is on Garrosh, not the horde itself), and that gets taken into account, but Jaina and Vereesa killing and capturing blood elves? Pff, naaaaah, thats fine, alliance can get away with that.

The worst culprits in war are those that remain complacent in there actions. If you can blame all the horde for Garrosh's actions against theramore, I can just as easily hold the alliance responsible for Jaina and Vereesa's actions in dalaran. Eye for an eye.

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No. People were hoping the Alliance would be treated with the same level of respect and attention as the Horde.

EJL

Meaning you want a complete victory and wouldn't be satisfied with anything less. Yeah, heard it all before.

[Talen]

As opposed to a long drawn out war that goes on for at least a year with massive casualties before the Horde eventually caves? Wrathion tells you exactly what would have happened if Varian continued the war after Garrosh is defeated. Victory at extremely high cost.

Which then gives the Alliance peace, security and maintains their territorial integrity while ending the Horde threat completely once and for all. It took the Horde 10 years after escaping the internment camps to get itself into shape to threaten the Alliance. Before that, it took them two years to return through the Portal.

Letting them go yet again and giving them yet another chance to rebuild whilst proving, beyond all doubt, that Garrosh was right in everything he said about them should be the last thing the Alliance is prepared to do - especially with Sylvanas stalking Lordaeron.

EJL

[Trassk]

Which then gives the Alliance peace, security and maintains their territorial integrity while ending the Horde threat completely once and for all. It took the Horde 10 years after escaping the internment camps to get itself into shape to threaten the Alliance. Before that, it took them two years to return through the Portal.

Letting them go yet again and giving them yet another chance to rebuild whilst proving, beyond all doubt, that Garrosh was right in everything he said about them should be the last thing the Alliance is prepared to do - especially with Sylvanas stalking Lordaeron.

EJL

Your.. really being shallow minded about this thing.

You are literally saying the only way your feel satisfied with any outcome is for the horde to be wiped out and unmade. Screw half the playerbase, screw pvping and balance, you want the alliance to be standing as the grand heroes of warcraft.

Just.. no. Get a clue buddy.

[zehzao]

The Alliance could reclaim all of Kalimdor. Build a Castle in Orgrimmar. Put Varian on a Throne over Garrosh's grave. And have Thrall and Vol'jin massaging one foot each.

The Alliance would still complain 1) That they still haven't taken back Gilneas 2) That not getting back Lordaeron is Horde favouritism 3) Thrall giving foot rubs just furthers his Green Jesus status 4) This is still a Horde centric expansion. 5) Varian is a tool and doesn't deserve foot rubs.

Do you know why Blizzard doesn't write good Alliance Lore? It's because the Alliance vocal majority are whiny brats who only track losses rather than having any pride in their faction or soverignty. I have tried so many times to rally my people to actually have some pride but they only ever commiserate losses. I gave up, went Horde and have never been prouder.

And actually I take that back because Blizzard write plenty of great alliance Lore. Even Wolfheart was pretty good and that was written by Knaak. Tides of War was good. Beyond the Dark Portal was good. Of Blood and Honour was a good Alliance centric book. Stormrage featured some great Alliance moments.

LOL.

I believe next xpac will be alliance centric.

[Trassk]

LOL.

I believe next xpac will be alliance centric.

the alliance should go back to doing what they were made to be doing, being boring and generic. The fact you need the horde to add any spice to your faction says it all.

[interceptor83]

from a players pov you dont really see it but the horde not really suffering from garrosh isnt true. Hes got the blood elves pissed because he thinks they are weak so he sees them as expendable and sends them on missions that keep getting many killed. Hes been turning the echo isles into basically an interment camp for trolls. So yeah things havent been all that peachy for the horde under garrosh.

As for why they would just leave. Youve just fought a war, beaten the guy you were looking to take down which turned out to only be a faction of the horde, the rest of the horde army is still right there. The alliance hasnt won at that point. So the options are basically continue fighting turning on the guys you were just fighting side by side with or count the day as a victory, main goal accomplished and head home for now. The alliance and horde take down garrosh, the alliance have not beaten the horde at the end of this.

[Talen]

The first time Horde even got a decent mention in the major storyline was during the war of the shifting sands, a JOINT effort. the rest was basically worthless shit barely parallel to the Alliance and their Dragonplots.

The fact that the Horde quests were lacking in Vanilla is no excuse for what happens now.

Now, Cataclysm comes along, gives The Horde Equal leveling areas

Which is a total and complete irrelevance,

And suddenly HUGE HORDE BIAS GREEN JESUS. The alliance STILL have a majority of areas mostly under their control, but hey, the Horde GAINED stuff, they're not allowed to do that!

Not when the Alliance doesn't get the same attention it isn't. There are TWO players faction in this game. If Blizzard can't give each the respect it deserves then it needs to merge them. But while they are separate, BOTH faction need to be treated with the same level of respect and attention.

And the Alliance hasn't been. If Blizzard couldn't develop such a stroy then it should never have started one.

If Thrall was a point in making it Horde centric, then every moment before cataclysm was Alliance with the Horde sort of tagging along.

Blizzard made the mistake of thinking that simply stating something makes it true.
It SAID Thrall was neutral; they did NOTHING to show that and the player base base didn't believe one word they said.

"We want Gilneas to be a fully alliance city" Yes, right outside Horde leveling zones, it's like putting a Horde City outside westfall. A retarded idea.

Why? Because then you'd have a Horde city close to an Alliance city as well. And with flying can you really tell me this is a serious objection?

"We want Dalaran in the place of Theramore!" Yes, right close to Orcish homelands and one Major city over the Horde. Sounds fair. A retarded idea.

What Alliance players actually asked for was for their victories to have an in game impact, just as Horde victories were.

"We want Lordaeron!" Yes, let's destroy any holdings the forsaken have, time to have a race with no capital city so the Alliance can have TWO HUMAN cities!" A retarded idea.

The Alliance SHOULD be makign some moves against Sylvanas.

They can't think of a single way to have some Alliance gain something without dramatically removing or endangering the Horde leveling or zone balance.

Phasing or a pure lore based victory have been suggested before.

EJL

[wych]

the alliance should go back to doing what they were made to be doing, being boring and generic. The fact you need the horde to add any spice to your faction says it all.

That's not true at all though, the alliance had a great story with many interesting characters, the issue is that most of them either got made neutral or changed their character to suit the storyline in WoW. The last 2 expansions the storyline has been horde focused and about horde characters, hence why the storyline is "boring"

[Arcanist]

Meaning you want a complete victory and wouldn't be satisfied with anything less. Yeah, heard it all before.

Keep grappling with that strawman.

[Trassk]

Seriously. the message in pandaria is a plain and obvious for anyone with the ounce of common sense. That regardless of whatever or wherever you stand, your enemies have every right to exist as you, no matter how different they are. You can fight them when they strike against you, but saying they have no right to exist isn't right or just.

There is a reason why garrosh is the enemy now, because be believes only him and his orcs should rule azeroth and all other races should be wiped out.

So, having the alliance claim some bs about the horde should be brought to an end, it makes you no better then Garrosh, and goes against the wisdom the pandaren live by.

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That's not true at all though, the alliance had a great story with many interesting characters, the issue is that most of them either got made neutral or changed their character to suit the storyline in WoW. The last 2 expansions the storyline has been horde focused and about horde characters, hence why the storyline is "boring"

Translation "I don't think horde should get development because I'm alliance and the story should focus on me". Yeah, heard that before too.

[wych]

Seriously. the message in pandaria is a plain and obvious for anyone with the ounce of common sense. That regardless of whatever or wherever you stand, your enemies have every right to exist as you, no matter how different they are. You can fight them when they strike against you, but saying they have no right to exist isn't right or just.

There is a reason why garrosh is the enemy now, because be believes only him and his orcs should rule azeroth and all other races should be wiped out.

So, having the alliance claim some bs about the horde should be brought to an end, it makes you no better then Garrosh, and goes against the wisdom the pandaren live by.

99% of people aren't calling for obliteration of the horde, just a storyline that makes sense and equally intrigues and involves both factions

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Seriously. the message in pandaria is a plain and obvious for anyone with the ounce of common sense. That regardless of whatever or wherever you stand, your enemies have every right to exist as you, no matter how different they are. You can fight them when they strike against you, but saying they have no right to exist isn't right or just.

There is a reason why garrosh is the enemy now, because be believes only him and his orcs should rule azeroth and all other races should be wiped out.

So, having the alliance claim some bs about the horde should be brought to an end, it makes you no better then Garrosh, and goes against the wisdom the pandaren live by.

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Translation "I don't think horde should get development because I'm alliance and the story should focus on me". Yeah, heard that before too.

Oh stop with the strawman that's not what I said at all

[Trassk]

99% of people aren't calling for obliteration of the horde, just a storyline that makes sense and equally intrigues and involves both factions

Nah, your kind of off on that one, most alliance I've read want the latter and do want there absolute victory, and no matter what happens they won't be satisfied with it. I can count on that 100% when mists is over.

As for the plot, seriously, if you can suggest anything better try do. Any suggestions I've seen from alliance ALWAYS comes with there suggesting the subjugation of the horde and humiliation of it. So if you can suggest something that works both ways, be my guest.

[Wondercrab]

I hope this leads on to a nice bit of peace between the Alliance and Horde in the coming expansion. Otherwise it's a bit of a silly turn of events, and a big missed opportunity in storytelling.

I want to either be at peace with the Alliance, or on the back foot as they kick our butts next expansion.

[Talen]

Your.. really being shallow minded about this thing.

You are literally saying the only way your feel satisfied with any outcome is for the horde to be wiped out and unmade. Screw half the playerbase, screw pvping and balance, you want the alliance to be standing as the grand heroes of warcraft.

Just.. no. Get a clue buddy.

No.

Blizzard started this incredibly stupid storyline. Starting the war was a bad move. Ending it is worse. But if they are to make the bets out of a bad situation, then they can't make either faction look bad or destroy either or whatever.

The Alliance should NOT walk out of Orgrimmar with nothing. the Horde should NOT be rewarded for being warmongers. Anything else and the Alliance look like idiots. Like morons. If they are in a position to "crush" the Horde, then they are in a position to regain their territories and act to ensure the Horde is no longer a major threat to them.

Its easy to see what the Horde get. A new Warchief. Freedom. A new start. The knowledge they have defended their The Alliance needs more than just a warm glow of being morally superior. The story needs more respect than a mandated from above completely ludicrous resolution. And so far, that is where it is headed.

EJL

[Solzan Nemesis]

No.

Blizzard started this incredibly stupid storyline. Starting the war was a bad move. Ending it is worse. But if they are to make the bets out of a bad situation, then they can't make either faction look bad or destroy either or whatever.

The Alliance should NOT walk out of Orgrimmar with nothing. the Horde should NOT be rewarded for being warmongers. Anything else and the Alliance look like idiots. Like morons. If they are in a position to "crush" the Horde, then they are in a position to regain their territories and act to ensure the Horde is no longer a major threat to them.

Its easy to see what the Horde get. A new Warchief. Freedom. A new start. The knowledge they have defended their The Alliance needs more than just a warm glow of being morally superior. The story needs more respect than a mandated from above completely ludicrous resolution. And so far, that is where it is headed.

EJL

I found it to have been an nice ride.

[Trassk]

Talen, all I'm seeing from you is 'the horde should be punished'. Thats all your saying. Despite there own loses, despite many of the horde races killed under Garrosh's own dictatorship, thats not enough for you, its got to be the alliance that gets vengeance from it.

And thats all this is, a poor cry for vengeance. Even against horde members who want to end Garrosh's rule and stop the war too, but.. nah, ignore that fact, you don't care.

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I hope this leads on to a nice bit of peace between the Alliance and Horde in the coming expansion. Otherwise it's a bit of a silly turn of events, and a big missed opportunity in storytelling.

I want to either be at peace with the Alliance, or on the back foot as they kick our butts next expansion.

oh my the tears from such a thing. Alliance will be crying for the hordes toys for years if that happens.